Biggest gap between the best horse in a crop and the rest
 

As DrugS was enthralling me yet again about how Rose didnt give afleet alex one of the dumbest rides in derby history, it occurred to me that in the last 20-30 years, it's possible that Afleet Alex might be the biggest standout in a single crop.

Now, I'm not saying that Afleet Alex is the best horse of the last 3 decades, but can anyone find an example of a horse that is that much better than the next best horse in their crop, compared to alex vs the rest of his junky crop?

Some have said Flower Alley would have beat Afleet Alex later in 2005. I think they're nuts.

holy giacamo! who in their right mind would have said that?

Point Given.. Swale..(?) Slew.. Native Dancer.. War Admiral..

point given at least had congaree in his crop. on both of their best days, up to 9f, i'd take congaree.


native dancer and war admiral were considerably more than 30 years ago.

swale's crop had precisionist, gate dancer, greinton, al mamoon, etc.
i'm not sure swale was even the best horse in the crop, though maybe at the time of the triple crown he was!


i'll give you slew, that one is pretty obvious, but cutting it close for the 30 year mark.

Bellamy Road.

Swale?

He had Dr. Carter, Devil's Bag, Slew o' Gold and even Time for a Change.

Smarty Jones was so much better than everyone in that crop it was ridiculous.

The fact that he didn't win the Triple Crown proves how difficult it really is...

I liked Swale.. Was just becoming a race fan at the time.

He was a nice horse....and at best about fourth or fifth best of his crop. Hell, as a 2YO Shuttle Jet used to give him all he could handle.

Did you ever read the chart of his Belmont win? I believe it said something like " closed off his own fractions ".

My nominees would be (from 1986 to present):
Arazi (1992) over AP Indy
Holy Bull (1994) over Tabasco Cat
Thunder Gulch (1995) over Serena's Song
Point Given (2001) over ????

My rankings:
1. Point Given
2. Arazi
3. Thunder Gulch
4. Holy Bull

I agree. I think it was Watchmaker who said, the true testament to Smarty Jones' talent (not going to use the "G" word) was the fact that he could carry Stewart Elliot to wins in the Derby and Preakness.

And, by the way, on the subject of this thread, it is preposterous to even suggest that horses that never raced past early June of their 3YO seasons ( and this includes Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex ) were distanced from their respective generations. Without knowing if they progressed, or how they stacked up against others in their generations who developed later, it is unfair to place them significantly ahead of their peers.

Take a look at Slew o' Gold, who obviously proved best of his generation, and tell me he was the best horse in early June when Caveat was kicking his azz in the Belmont.

.......swale, no sir the late great gate dancer punched him in the neck;)

wow. i love arazi too, but there was no way he was tons better than ap indy, if at all.

point given had congaree.

i'm not sold on thunder gulch even being best in his crop. and the holy bull crop was quite nice

Thunder Gulch won a war of attrition. He was not that good.

Arazi over AP Indy, Lure or Paradise Creek??

Thunder Gulch was a nice horse, but let's remember that Timber Country and Afternoon Deelites were also members of this crop, and Thunder Gulch was all out on more than one occasion to beat Suave Prospect. If he was THAT GOOD, I doubt he would have been 24-1 in the Derby.

I think I'd have to look at Spectacular Bid.

yeah, i should have been more specific. i was wondering how long it would take for someone to point out that invasor was in the AA crop.

I should have said that to qualify, it would have to be a horse running in the usa at roughly the time of the triple crown, give or take a few months.

as great at bid was, at least that crop had the very nice horses flying paster, relaunch, coastal and general assembly.

I always felt that AP Indy was better but not much better than Bertrando. And I know how much better than Bertrando Arazi was.

I loved Congaree as a horse but I didn't think he showed his best until later. Point Given kicked his ass in the Preakness and then that was Congaree later getting handled again in the Jim Dandy.

That may be true or it may not be. But I don't think there is any question that he was by far the dominant 3yo that year. Go through the history books and tell me how many can have wins in the Florida Derby, Fountain of Youth, Travers, Swaps, Kentucky Derby and Preakness. It's a special horse in my book that travel the country and win that many of the best races in his division. U may call it a war of attrition. Who else was as good as he was that year? Timber Country was talented but he was also losing the San Rafael and San Felipe. Afternoon Deelites was a nice horse too. None had the record of Thunder Gulch or the sustained consistency from the start of the year till the end. Well, at least till September.

I agree, but I think if Smarty had stuck around, he would've eaten alive those other 3-year-olds in his class all season long.

Thunder Gulch, who you seem to think was dominant, was winning photos from Suave Prospect in those Florida races.

Please.

Afleet Alex had lost in each of his first three attempts in route races. He also didn't offer much competition for Bellamy Road in the betting going into the Kentucky Derby---so, he didn't come into the triple crown series far superior to his crop.

He never raced after the triple crown series...so, he wasn't far superior to his crop after the triple crown series.

He was, by far, the dominant horse in his crops triple crown series...his domination was awfully short lived though.

Spectacular Bid is obviously the most dominant horse in his crop to race in the last 30 years.

1988, the Lakers won the NBA title four games to three over the Pistons. In the series, the Pistons actually outscored the Lakers by 18 total points. That year, the Lakers won 4-3 over Utah, 4-3 over Dallas, and 4-3 over Detroit. Pushed to the limit in all three series.

2000, the Lakers won the NBA title four games to two over the Pacers. In the series, the Pacers actually outscored the Lakers by 11 total points.

2002, the Lakers won the Western Conference finals four games to three over the Kings. In the series, the Lakers won their games by 7, 4, 1 and 2 points. The Kings actually outscored the Lakers by two total points.

1978, Affirmed won the Derby by 1 1/2 lengths, the Preakness by a neck, and the Belmont by a head.

Maybe I'm not making any point at all. The one I am trying to make though is that in each of those instances, the one that needed to find that extra when it counted most, got it done. I like to see dominating performances but I don't feel it's necessary to win by 20 points a game or by ten lengths to prove your dominance. If u get it done everytime it counts, or the vast majority of the times, to me, u are the clear leader. Where was Suave Prospect in the finals? While Barbaro was seemingly having his hands full with Sharp Humor and Great Point in the prelims, where were those horses when it counted the most?

Aside from how bad the analogy was, the Lakers beat the Pistons on a horrendous late game call against Bill Lambeer in game six, and the fact that Isiah Thomas twisted his ankle in that same game, and was well below his game for the deciding game.

If you want to stick to that analogy, then you have proven how weak your argument for Thunder Gulch was, as no horse can be considered dominent simply because lucky breaks fell their way.

Thunder Gulch was a nice horse. Star Standard was second in his Belmont.

sunday silence--any horse that can beat easy goer, three times, has to be clearly the best of his generation!

but really, i think it's the bid as well--that was a good crop, but he was so much the best.

I don't remember the Lakers vs Pistons NBA Finals---so I have nothing to add in that debate---however....Thunder Gulch was the perceived DWL 3rd stringer coming into that years Derby--as Lukas wore his Timber Country hat and his Serena's Song button all week.

The esteemed members of the press talked about the other two Lukas runners and ignored TG all week long. The bettors seemed to follow step to that trend as well.

TG did win the Derby, and I feel was the best horse that day.

He finished behind Oliver's Twist in the Preakness. He won the slowest Belmont I've ever seen---the final time was like 2:32 flat.

And while he also won the Travers, I believe Composer, who would find his way into claiming races later on, was strongly supported and about 7/2 or 4/1 in the betting that day...if my memory isn't going bad on me.

TG certainly won the big races---but, as far as domination goes----I didn't see it.

I don't think so.

you don't think spectacular bid was much the best of his crop?

Cajun is a rabid fan of Flying Paster.

Oops. I was thinking you were talking about Sunday Silence still. My mistake... :o

LOL... no. :p

lol
i see....

i figured that part of my post would get some reaction!!

EASY GOER! Come on now...

yeah, i liked easy goer too--but sunday silence earned my respect big time. tremendous horse...well, both of them were.

Again though, the question isn't how good these horses were in the grand scheme of things. It's how much better were they than what they had to face. For example, say u believe Smarty Jones was an "a" level horse and the next best horse, Lion Heart was "c" level. Well, u may believe Thunder Gulch was "h" level in talent........but if the next best horses were "l", then his gap is bigger.

My argument was never about how great Thunder Gulch was. But when u win that many of those types of races, it's more than just a lucky break or two and things falling your way.

Thunder Gulch was neither the best horse of his generation ( whatever level of talent you choose ) nor was he a dominent performer.

In my opinion, he was far and away the best of his generation and proved it over and over again.