Most Impressive in Defeat? - Page 7

Cannon Shell · #**121** 11-04-2013, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Like I said, we can always find reasons not to do things. I do see your side of things, even when I debate it. Trainers and jockeys "might forget" or "don't speak English" doesn't cut it for me. Pretty sure I could learn to say "Don't use the whip" in Spanish if I needed to do so in about a minute. Other's mileage may vary. I guess the military did that to me, tough to change after all those years.

I'm looking at it from a bettors pov when I say that. If they announce that a horse isn't going to be whipped and then is it will cause a upheaval. I more or less gave up on giving instructions most of the time. You just confuse the little fellas for the most part.

cmorioles · #**122** 11-04-2013, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Use of the whip is strategy.

This is where we disagree. No point going on, I've said all I really have to say on the matter. I'm going to side with helping bettors 100% of the time over making things easier on horsemen every time, because I'm a bettor. Every time I counter something you say, you change the issue. Doesn't speak English. Give me a break.

randallscott35 · #**123** 11-04-2013, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmorioles

What in the world happened to Sweet Reason?

It didn't rain. Duh

Cannon Shell · #**124** 11-04-2013, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmorioles

This is where we disagree. No point going on, I've said all I really have to say on the matter. I'm going to side with helping bettors 100% of the time over making things easier on horsemen every time, because I'm a bettor. Every time I counter something you say, you change the issue. Doesn't speak English. Give me a break.

You are casting stones from an ivory tower. I'm simply being realistic. It isn't any hardship on horsemen, they just wont feel the need to tell the stewards because there is nothing to lose or gain from it. It isn't a matter of taking sides like you always want to make it. It is just a lack of practicality and essentially making a trainers instruction a rule.

cmorioles · #**125** 11-04-2013, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randallscott35

It didn't rain. Duh

Didn't she run an 86 on a fast track after a poor break last time?

randallscott35 · #**126** 11-04-2013, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Didn't she run an 86 on a fast track after a poor break last time?

The breed is a disaster that can't run without lasix. Therefore, the garbage times for the juveniles.

Jay Frederick · #**127** 11-04-2013, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmorioles

This is where we disagree. No point going on, I've said all I really have to say on the matter. I'm going to side with helping bettors 100% of the time over making things easier on horsemen every time, because I'm a bettor. Every time I counter something you say, you change the issue. Doesn't speak English. Give me a break.

There is some gray area on if knowing this is a help to bettors or not.

Your point is well taken, but as a bettor, this information isn't something I care about. Now if you're talking about knowing something like accurate first time gelding information or knowing if a horse had a significant surgery I'm in full agreement.

Here's a hypothetical scenario. Pletcher discloses Havana won't be whipped. You decide not to play him because of this and during the stretch Stevens decides that maybe the horse will respond favorably to the whip and decides to whip Havana and Havana actually comes back and wins.

Then we'd be back to square one.

cmorioles · #**128** 11-04-2013, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randallscott35

The breed is a disaster that can't run without lasix. Therefore, the garbage times for the juveniles.

That is a bit different from "it didn't rain", isn't it?

randallscott35 · #**129** 11-04-2013, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmorioles

That is a bit different from "it didn't rain", isn't it?

Combo platter.

Cannon Shell · #**130** 11-04-2013, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randallscott35

The breed is a disaster that can't run without lasix. Therefore, the garbage times for the juveniles.

Funny we are told the breed is too tilted towards speed and yet with Lasix the Sprint time was "garbage"

cmorioles · #**131** 11-04-2013, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay Frederick

Here's a hypothetical scenario. Pletcher discloses Havana won't be whipped. You decide not to play him because of this and during the stretch Stevens decides that maybe the horse will respond favorably to the whip and decides to whip Havana and Havana actually comes back and wins.

Then we'd be back to square one.

He then gets fined and suspended I guess. At least I know somebody is watching. There has to be a line somewhere to help bettors, so I'm going to argue for every inch and hope it gets better for us.

I said a while back I know there are a lot more important things to worry about. The stuff you mention is certainly up there. But that would probably inconvenience somebody, or the vet might only speak Mandarin and accidentally confuse "gelded" for "displaced palate", and we can't have that.

cmorioles · #**132** 11-04-2013, 06:56 PM

Have fun, I'm off to get my brain MRIed (seriously), so maybe they'll find the reason I get into these discussions!

randallscott35 · #**133** 11-04-2013, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Funny we are told the breed is too tilted towards speed and yet with Lasix the Sprint time was "garbage"

Real testing this year. Go figure. 2 yr old filly would've hit the board in the Turf Sprint. All the numbers were down.

Calzone Lord · #**134** 11-04-2013, 06:58 PM

Stevens always had the whip put away on Havana. I had people around me trying to tell me "he just didn't see the inside horse coming" -- that's crazy, he's not a 10lbs bug. It was pretty obvious it had to be riding to instructions.

At least with Mucho Macho Man, he pulled the whip out, showed the horse the whip, and used the whip on him in the final furlong without ever slashing into him real hard.

Again, I don't care about the fact that Havana was given a lazy hand ride through the stretch & hit a complete brick wall in the last 1/16th. I think the whip is kind of overrated.

I just get a little sick with trainers and jockeys being cute and imposing their will when they don't have to.

Cannon Shell · #**135** 11-04-2013, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmorioles

He then gets fined and suspended I guess. At least I know somebody is watching. There has to be a line somewhere to help bettors, so I'm going to argue for every inch and hope it gets better for us.

I said a while back I know there are a lot more important things to worry about. The stuff you mention is certainly up there. But that would probably inconvenience somebody, or the vet might only speak Mandarin and accidentally confuse "gelded" for "displaced palate", and we can't have that.

Do bettors really care if a jockey gets fined or suspended?

randallscott35 · #**136** 11-04-2013, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Do bettors really care if a jockey gets fined or suspended?

Why does that matter? You don't have rules to make the bettors happy. God the last person they care about in this game is the bettors.

Cannon Shell · #**137** 11-04-2013, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Real testing this year. Go figure. 2 yr old filly would've hit the board in the Turf Sprint. All the numbers were down.

Real testing as opposed to fake testing?

pmayjr · #**138** 11-04-2013, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

With all due respect, this is nonsense. A domestic rider may have gotten him to change leads, but Joseph O'Brien rode a PERFECT race. Not only did he have Declaration of War in an ideal position from the start, he successfully avoided running into traffic as the horses immediately in front of him quit. He kept on grinding down the stretch and came up short. It was unfortunate that he wouldn't change leads because it very well may have been the difference, but it wasn't like the jock wasn't trying to get him to switch.

On top of that, American jockeys have never been worse than right now. It's comical how bad our "good" jockeys like Rosario, Castellano and Bejarano are on the big stage.

Bejarano on Silentio doing his best Jeremy Rose on Afleet Alex in the Derby impression in the stretch (barf). I mean this costing him 2nd of course. He wasn't beating Wise Dan.

Cannon Shell · #**139** 11-04-2013, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Stevens always had the whip put away on Havana. I had people around me trying to tell me "he just didn't see the inside horse coming" -- that's crazy, he's not a 10lbs bug. It was pretty obvious it had to be riding to instructions.

At least with Mucho Macho Man, he pulled the whip out, showed the horse the whip, and used the whip on him in the final furlong without ever slashing into him real hard.

Again, I don't care about the fact that Havana was given a lazy hand ride through the stretch & hit a complete brick wall in the last 1/16th. I think the whip is kind of overrated.

I just get a little sick with trainers and jockeys being cute and imposing their will when they don't have to.

You'd hate Jai ali

randallscott35 · #**140** 11-04-2013, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Real testing as opposed to fake testing?

I'd like to think it's always excellent. Seems the last few years it's more serious. The big trainers horses aren't running worth a snot in the Cup lately. Even Baffert's 2 wins were subpar....no horse heart attacks though so a good weekend overall.