SWLY Under Weather; No MTH...

[phystech]

I'm confused as to why black-type is so important to this horse. I thought we were in this to be a "fun" RACING stable, not to pursue black type. Black type only becomes important for breeding purposes - I bought into a racehorse to run in races and win.

Frankly, on paper, our horse was no better than 20-1 M/L in this race. Lots of horses in here who have conquered the N1X - we haven't. But, reality is, paper doesn't win a race - you've got to do it on the racetrack. Who knows how she would have handled this field as we can only speculate......

I like to race and win. I am not concerned with black type. Winning races will take care of everything else. Let's run and win some races and worry about the broodmare crap when we need to!!

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by phystech

I'm confused as to why black-type is so important to this horse. I thought we were in this to be a "fun" RACING stable, not to pursue black type. Black type only becomes important for breeding purposes - I bought into a racehorse to run in races and win.

Frankly, on paper, our horse was no better than 20-1 M/L in this race. Lots of horses in here who have conquered the N1X - we haven't. But, reality is, paper doesn't win a race - you've got to do it on the racetrack. Who knows how she would have handled this field as we can only speculate......

I like to race and win. I am not concerned with black type. Winning races will take care of everything else. Let's run and win some races and worry about the broodmare crap when we need to!!

Black type is important because it serves as an insurance policy in the case that the filly would become disabled in some way which you as an experienced owner can understand happens far too often. Being that she is out of a graded stakes winner, Black type can mean the difference between her being a $20k broodmare or a $75k or up broodmare. This partnership and your investment will go much further if we can maximize her value. You are correct in that this was designed for fun and for racing but to ignore the potential that a simple blacktype placing will give this horse is a mistake. That being said I think that the Arlington race , an allowance, is a strong possibility at this point.

[Cannon Shell]

And beside the Pletcher horse who is so good in the Monmouth race? I would think that we would have had a good shot at being on the board in that field.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Black type is important because it serves as an insurance policy in the case that the filly would become disabled in some way which you as an experienced owner can understand happens far too often. Being that she is out of a graded stakes winner, Black type can mean the difference between her being a $20k broodmare or a $75k or up broodmare. This partnership and your investment will go much further if we can maximize her value. You are correct in that this was designed for fun and for racing but to ignore the potential that a simple blacktype placing will give this horse is a mistake. That being said I think that the Arlington race , an allowance, is a strong possibility at this point.

Will she definitely not be ready for the 4th of July allowance at Churchill? We took on the older mares last time and saw they were nothing to be scared of. I'm curious cause it seems like from your position losing her condition for $30K would kinda suck when it could have been for $50K. Obviously for the rest of us the purse difference is a very small issue when it is split 100 ways and we'd be thrilled to have her in the winner's circle. Just don't want to see you get too selfless here!

[phystech]

And I fully support racing in the N1X at Arlington as I see it it as the next natural progression in what this filly might be.

I'm an old fashion guy - I see the natural progression to stake competition as running though N1X, if not N2X conditions, as a progressive step to stake company. And, yet, I would always defer to my trainer to make the final decision on the company my horse keeps. As a bystander, there is no way I can be a good judge of my horse's ability or natural placement. In my trainer, I trust.

I would just hate to see the focus of our efforts shift from giving her a chance to win the best race she can for us, to running in the best race she can for her broodmare owners - know what I mean? While I completely understand the broodmare/racing ownership part of this, I can't help but wonder what our focus is? And, are the two mutually inclusive/exclusive?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by phystech

And I fully support racing in the N1X at Arlington as I see it it as the next natural progression in what this filly might be.

I'm an old fashion guy - I see the natural progression to stake competition as running though N1X, if not N2X conditions, as a progressive step to stake company. And, yet, I would always defer to my trainer to make the final decision on the company my horse keeps. As a bystander, there is no way I can be a good judge of my horse's ability or natural placement. In my trainer, I trust.

I would just hate to see the focus of our efforts shift from giving her a chance to win the best race she can for us, to running in the best race she can for her broodmare owners - know what I mean? While I completely understand the broodmare/racing ownership part of this, I can't help but wonder what our focus is? And, are the two mutually inclusive/exclusive?

I think that one of the main mistakes that horse owners make that causes them financial pain is the failure to recognize the value of a horse as an asset. Maximizing the value of your asset is a basic tenant of traditional investing as it should be in racehorse investing. In horseracing the greatest and fastest way to increase the value of your asset is through blacktype. The purses that we run for are great but you have to be so good and fortunate that it is hard to make it work on a horse by horse basis. But if you can lock in, through black type, a "guaranteed" increase in your assets value then you are ahead of the game.

I agree that in most horses cases the natural progression is the way to go. However with a filly with some pedigree who may or may not develop into a true stake horse, it is wise to take advantage of these overnight 'pseudo' stakes that are rarely more than glorified allowance races.

I trained a filly by Honor Grades for a client that really did not want to be in the business. She was going to enter the horse in the Keeneland November broodmare sale and was going to sell with no reserve. The filly was a 1/2 sister to a graded stakes winner and a listed stakes placed horse. We got an appraisal from 2 trusted sources that valued her at $50k. Now all she had done was break her maiden and actually she had similar form, though probably slower numbers, to Sumwonlovesyou. I wound up purchasing her for another client who is a commercial breeder for 45k (the lady who really did not want to be in the business had enough class to send me a nice commission). He said to me that we would race her the whole year the following year and make a decision on breeding her next year. But he asked if we could try to get some black type somewhere it would really help sell her babies. She wound up winning an nw1x that winter but she was stuck in the nw2x, kept running well but losing. I shipped her to Monmouth that summer and ran her in an overnight stake which came up really tough. She ran 6th or 7th and afterwards we decided the stakes there were too tough and we would stick to allowances for now and take a shot in a KY Downs stakes later in the fall. Well a few weeks later the Grade 3 was coming up light and the stakes coordinator called me a hundred times the few days before because he was worried about a really short race since Pletcher had a 3-5 shot that was scaring all the other contenders away. I said what the hell we will enter and scratch if it he hustled in a bunch of other horses. Well the race came up with 6 , the Pletcher 3-5 shot, a couple of horses that finished ahead of us in the overnight race and a couple of fillys trying the turf for the 1st time. But I decided to run because we were the only speed horse in a 6 horse field. When I told the owner that I thought we should run, he was skeptical but said if I thought we should then go for it. Well to make a long story short, we loped along to an easy lead and actually looked like we may steal it until you know who beats us in the last 100 yards. Well the owner didn't even believe me when I called and said we were second in a grade 3 because he hadn't even bothered to watch the race! We got a couple call after that but we weren't selling until we took a few shots at making her a stakes winner. She was stakes placed one more time after that and won one more allowance race before he retired her. He was offered $400k for her and turned it down, which I thought was crazy but thats what kind of increase in value that one black type placing can make in a mares worth.

[phystech]

And your story exemplifies why I say, " In my trainer, I trust."

I'm not an expert. I depend on my trainer's advice on the placment of my horses and I depend on his/her advice to counsel me on the decisions I have to make.

I understand that your advice is not set in stone and your experience offers us/me the best experienced " guess", for lack of a better term, to guide us along the way - and I think you are doing a hell of a job!!!!!!! For that, I thank you, sincerely!!!

To see the focus of this group divert from winning a race at a racetrack, to, winning a meaningfull race at a meaningful racetrack is quite interesting, to say the least. It's been a great ride so far and I am intrigued as to where it will take us.

[onebadbeast]

Hey Chuck, Chill Out, Relax, Eat Some Pie. You Sound Like You Are Gonna Blow Up! All Kidding Aside, You Are Doing A Fine Job Keeping 40 Plus People And A Horse Happy. Just Wish You Could Find More Races On A Saturday Or A Sunday?

[Riot]

Good story, Chuck. I learn more about the varied aspects of the racing game every day via Sumwonlovesyou.

[3kings]

Chuck,
Thanks for the story. I understood the meaning of black type but your story puts it more in black and white for the first time partnership person. I hope you and Steve are enjoying the experience because it has been a great learning experience for most of us. Keep up the good work and I hope to meet you at the next race.

Tom

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I think that one of the main mistakes that horse owners make that causes them financial pain is the failure to recognize the value of a horse as an asset. Maximizing the value of your asset is a basic tenant of traditional investing as it should be in racehorse investing. In horseracing the greatest and fastest way to increase the value of your asset is through blacktype. The purses that we run for are great but you have to be so good and fortunate that it is hard to make it work on a horse by horse basis. But if you can lock in, through black type, a "guaranteed" increase in your assets value then you are ahead of the game.

I agree that in most horses cases the natural progression is the way to go. However with a filly with some pedigree who may or may not develop into a true stake horse, it is wise to take advantage of these overnight 'pseudo' stakes that are rarely more than glorified allowance races.

I trained a filly by Honor Grades for a client that really did not want to be in the business. She was going to enter the horse in the Keeneland November broodmare sale and was going to sell with no reserve. The filly was a 1/2 sister to a graded stakes winner and a listed stakes placed horse. We got an appraisal from 2 trusted sources that valued her at $50k. Now all she had done was break her maiden and actually she had similar form, though probably slower numbers, to Sumwonlovesyou. I wound up purchasing her for another client who is a commercial breeder for 45k (the lady who really did not want to be in the business had enough class to send me a nice commission). He said to me that we would race her the whole year the following year and make a decision on breeding her next year. But he asked if we could try to get some black type somewhere it would really help sell her babies. She wound up winning an nw1x that winter but she was stuck in the nw2x, kept running well but losing. I shipped her to Monmouth that summer and ran her in an overnight stake which came up really tough. She ran 6th or 7th and afterwards we decided the stakes there were too tough and we would stick to allowances for now and take a shot in a KY Downs stakes later in the fall. Well a few weeks later the Grade 3 was coming up light and the stakes coordinator called me a hundred times the few days before because he was worried about a really short race since Pletcher had a 3-5 shot that was scaring all the other contenders away. I said what the hell we will enter and scratch if it he hustled in a bunch of other horses. Well the race came up with 6 , the Pletcher 3-5 shot, a couple of horses that finished ahead of us in the overnight race and a couple of fillys trying the turf for the 1st time. But I decided to run because we were the only speed horse in a 6 horse field. When I told the owner that I thought we should run, he was skeptical but said if I thought we should then go for it. Well to make a long story short, we loped along to an easy lead and actually looked like we may steal it until you know who beats us in the last 100 yards. Well the owner didn't even believe me when I called and said we were second in a grade 3 because he hadn't even bothered to watch the race! We got a couple call after that but we weren't selling until we took a few shots at making her a stakes winner. She was stakes placed one more time after that and won one more allowance race before he retired her. He was offered $400k for her and turned it down, which I thought was crazy but thats what kind of increase in value that one black type placing can make in a mares worth.

I noticed the other day that you were the agent for Divine Park...$20K certainly came up a steal for his buyers. Good eye!

[ddthetide]

chuck told a couple of us, of this experience before the last race. i understand it even better after getting to read through it.
thanks for sharing it again.