Most Impressive in Defeat?

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Ty..

Chuck said the same thing to me after the race.. that a domestic rider could have made the difference. Completely understand O'Brien sticking with Joseph in the spot, but after flogging him on radio and in the XB Wagering Guide, I backed it up at the window and really needed Declaration. Even 2nd was a good result. Game try.

With all due respect, this is nonsense. A domestic rider may have gotten him to change leads, but Joseph O'Brien rode a PERFECT race. Not only did he have Declaration of War in an ideal position from the start, he successfully avoided running into traffic as the horses immediately in front of him quit. He kept on grinding down the stretch and came up short. It was unfortunate that he wouldn't change leads because it very well may have been the difference, but it wasn't like the jock wasn't trying to get him to switch.

On top of that, American jockeys have never been worse than right now. It's comical how bad our "good" jockeys like Rosario, Castellano and Bejarano are on the big stage.

[South Beach Luv]

Judy the Beauty ran well considering Luis Saez was never on her before. I wonder if JV would have made the difference. I hope she comes back next year.

[PatCummings]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Ty..

Chuck said the same thing to me after the race.. that a domestic rider could have made the difference. Completely understand O'Brien sticking with Joseph in the spot, but after flogging him on radio and in the XB Wagering Guide, I backed it up at the window and really needed Declaration. Even 2nd was a good result. Game try.

I suggest that Joseph O'Brien's ride on Declaration of War was the best of his career...first time on dirt, saved ground, kickback a first for both horse and rider, chasing American speed. He can't go on much longer as a jock, but I'll always remember this mount as one of, if not the best of his career. They were totally expecting to be slow away compared to American early dirt speed and have to be wide and limit the kickback - but O'Brien got him away well, in a handy position, and gave him every chance to win.

Having touted him as much as you did, I'd be monumentally thrilled with the ride and performance.

[PatCummings]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Did Pat really write " The boys of Ballydoyle " in this thread?

Excuse me while I barf.

The crew from Coolmore? Better?

[Calzone Lord]

The correct answer of which horse ran the best race in defeat? The Fugue

I don't know about "impressive" though, because she was expected to run very well.

The Turf Sprint was an absolutely terrible race. 13th (and last) place beaten just 6 lengths. 10th place beaten just 4 lengths. The final time was almost as slow as a 2yo race over the same course earlier in the day.

[PatCummings]

Isolate Will Take Charge on video and watch it again...

Saez pushes him along on the first turn, to keep Palace Malice from coming over on him, then has to ease him back to avoid heels in front. He then looks completely all-in about a third of the way around the far turn, where it seems impossible for him to come on and get a slice. Saez keeps him going, angles out to the widest point only in the last third of the far turn, and just never gives up on him. Remarkable run for a horse making his 13th start in 12.5 months.

I wasn't arguing before that any one horses was more impressive than another in defeat, because well, you really just can't pick one. In the Classic itself, while they don't pay it that way, I felt like three horses won.

[cmorioles]

Pat will like this one...just did some rough work ... thinking of writing an article on it for TimeformUS. In the Juvenile, I these were the pace figures I have for the 3/4 mile and the finish for the top 3, 0-100 scale:

Havana		82    72
Strong Mandate	84    71
New Year's Day	76    73

But when you add in ground loss, they look like this:

Havana		91	81
Strong Mandate	93	79
New Year's Day	81	79

Pretty tough to argue the winner was anything better than 3rd best (not that you needed numbers to see that, but this will be part of the future)

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

The correct answer of which horse ran the best race in defeat? The Fugue

I don't know about "impressive" though, because she was expected to run very well.

The Turf Sprint was an absolutely terrible race. 13th (and last) place beaten just 6 lengths. 10th place beaten just 4 lengths. The final time was almost as slow as a 2yo race over the same course earlier in the day.

The Fugue ran very well. I also wonder if Romantico could have won if she had received Lasix.

Those were very tough races to do, and it is really hard to imagine the field was that bad. I know Beyer commented he didn't trust the times. I don't think there is a problem with them to be honest, but that race is a tough call any way you cut it.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Strong Mandate was pretty damn good in defeat.

Any guess on what happened in the Champagne?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

With all due respect, this is nonsense. A domestic rider may have gotten him to change leads, but Joseph O'Brien rode a PERFECT race. Not only did he have Declaration of War in an ideal position from the start, he successfully avoided running into traffic as the horses immediately in front of him quit. He kept on grinding down the stretch and came up short. It was unfortunate that he wouldn't change leads because it very well may have been the difference, but it wasn't like the jock wasn't trying to get him to switch.

On top of that, American jockeys have never been worse than right now. It's comical how bad our "good" jockeys like Rosario, Castellano and Bejarano are on the big stage.

With all due respect how can you say that its nonsense and also say that a domestic rider may have gotten to change leads and say that not switching very well may have been the difference?

[Danzig]

riders for courses would be an advantage. why else would they have changed jocks for animal kingdoms last? now, it didn't help in that situation, but we've all seen races where a horse was impaired because of a jocks lack of experience at a track.

if i was bringing over a euro, you can bet your behind i'd want the best american jock on him. surface switch is one thing, race riding is different, pace is different, hell, direction is different.
a u.s. jock could only have helped DOW.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

With all due respect, this is nonsense. A domestic rider may have gotten him to change leads, but Joseph O'Brien rode a PERFECT race. Not only did he have Declaration of War in an ideal position from the start, he successfully avoided running into traffic as the horses immediately in front of him quit. He kept on grinding down the stretch and came up short. It was unfortunate that he wouldn't change leads because it very well may have been the difference, but it wasn't like the jock wasn't trying to get him to switch.

On top of that, American jockeys have never been worse than right now. It's comical how bad our "good" jockeys like Rosario, Castellano and Bejarano are on the big stage.

I think this is more about your eagerness to bash the domestic jocks than arguing that a more efficient moving North American style rider might have gotten the little extra out of Declaration that potentially changes the outcome. As Chuck just said, you're at cross-purposes regarding the lead change.

[PatCummings]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Pat will like this one...just did some rough work ... thinking of writing an article on it for TimeformUS. In the Juvenile, I these were the pace figures I have for the 3/4 mile and the finish for the top 3, 0-100 scale:

Havana		82    72
Strong Mandate	84    71
New Year's Day	76    73

But when you add in ground loss, they look like this:

Havana		91	81
Strong Mandate	93	79
New Year's Day	81	79

Pretty tough to argue the winner was anything better than 3rd best (not that you needed numbers to see that, but this will be part of the future)

Good stuff. Tap It Rich lost the most ground in the field too, be interested to see where he fits in. That horse just doesn't seem like he has a real penchant for cornering.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by PatCummings

Good stuff. Tap It Rich lost the most ground in the field too, be interested to see where he fits in. That horse just doesn't seem like he has a real penchant for cornering.

I'll check him out tomorrow and post.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

But when you add in ground loss, they look like this:

Havana		91	81
Strong Mandate	93	79
New Year's Day	81	79

Pretty tough to argue the winner was anything better than 3rd best (not that you needed numbers to see that, but this will be part of the future)

It would have been pretty swell if Havana managed to hold on.



I would have had a $30 trifecta if Havana lasted. The Tri paid $476.10 for a $1 with him second.

Gary Stevens never went to the whip on him. I don't know if that was by instruction or not ... but I was certainly counting the money on the far turn. It's a damn shame that race wasn't run on Friday.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Any guess on what happened in the Champagne?

Horrible ride.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by PatCummings

I suggest that Joseph O'Brien's ride on Declaration of War was the best of his career...first time on dirt, saved ground, kickback a first for both horse and rider, chasing American speed. He can't go on much longer as a jock, but I'll always remember this mount as one of, if not the best of his career. They were totally expecting to be slow away compared to American early dirt speed and have to be wide and limit the kickback - but O'Brien got him away well, in a handy position, and gave him every chance to win.

Having touted him as much as you did, I'd be monumentally thrilled with the ride and performance.

I was thrilled with the performance. I didn't criticize the ride in the least. I annotated that Chuck had made a similar suggestion that perhaps a more N.A.-style rider might have put Declaration over the top. He also could have gotten him in a peck a trouble.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

It would have been pretty swell if Havana managed to hold on.



I would have had a $30 trifecta if Havana lasted. The Tri paid $476.10 for a $1 with him second.

Gary Stevens never went to the whip on him. I don't know if that was by instruction or not ... but I was certainly counting the money on the far turn. It's a damn shame that race wasn't run on Friday.

If it were run on Friday Strong Mandate might have won!

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Kasept

I was thrilled with the performance. I didn't criticize the ride in the least. I anotated that Chuck had made a similar suggestion that perhaps a more N.A.-style rider might have put Declaration over the top. He also could have gotten him in a peck a trouble.

Or he might have plugged him in

Eric guillot said he didnt have that late surge

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

It would have been pretty swell if Havana managed to hold on.

Gary Stevens never went to the whip on him. I don't know if that was by instruction or not ... but I was certainly counting the money on the far turn. It's a damn shame that race wasn't run on Friday.

He was told by Pletcher not to use the stick.