11/11 ATR: The Great HOTY Debate

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

"where it was" - Yea when the races are run at Santa Anita they should not count, kinda like when the crew for Mineshaft decided he was just to cool to run at Santa Anita, racing at the place is not worth the trip for you eastern guys, and heck that was on dirt even!!

"who it came against" - cut it any way you want, that was a better field than RA ran againt all year. Her best field was probably the Woodward, and this field drown that one. I guess her race on an off track, not fast dirt mind you but an off track in NJ is a close second.

Also when separating two records for Horse of the Year it should factor in the impact a horse had on a sport, and I think in 20 years unless RA wins the Classic, America's defining race for quality, next year that they will still be talking about Zenyatta and not RA. This takes nothing away from her but fillies winning or competing in triple crown races, well seems to the rage the last few years.

The triple crown races outweigh the Breeders Cup as far as people who watch it. I read the TV ratings were low again for the BC.

Tons more people watched the Preakness I would guess.

[slotdirt]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

The triple crown races outweigh the Breeders Cup as far as people who watch it. I read the TV ratings were low again for the BC.

Tons more people watched the Preakness I would guess.

7.9/.9 for the Preakness versus the Breeders Cup Classic. That is, if I understand my Nielsen ratings correctly. It's not even close - a TON more people watch the Triple Crown than do the Breeders Cup, particularly when there is a compelling story involved.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

I was responding to CSC saying "that wasnt a valid reason for not running in the BC" so yes my post was about the BC.

First off, she's not retired. She will be running in 2010. Big difference! And if she was spent and needed a month or two of eating grass time.. well it takes time to get fit again after that.

I dont blame the connections at all. Her campaign was a tough as anyone's.

Gander expressed it well so I didn't bother replying last night.

BUT EVER SINCE SHE WAS BOUGHT BY JJ SHE WAS NOT GOING TO RUN IN THE BREEDERS CUP!

Do you believe if she had lost to Macho Again in the Woodward, JJ would have put her on the shelf for the rest of the year with almost 4 months of racing to go? If you do you give him far more credit than I do. Everyone knows what he said, he said the same thing about Curlin a yr earlier before flip flopping, I don't know why you are so sure to believe him now.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by CSC

Gander expressed it well so I didn't bother replying last night.



Do you believe if she had lost to Macho Again in the Woodward, JJ would have put her on the shelf for the rest of the year with almost 4 months of racing to go? If you do you give him far more credit than I do. Everyone knows what he said, he said the same thing about Curlin a yr earlier before flip flopping, I don't know why you are so sure to believe him now.

I think he realized he made a mistake by going against his gut feeling with Curlin.. and would make sure he didnt do the same thing with Rachel.

The horse ran so hard for 9 months this year.. she deserved a rest.

If he somehow retires her while she is healthy and she doesnt run next year I may change my opinion.

[Gate Dancer]

I think the thing that offends me most about the Zenyatta Classic is that so many people seem to fall into the "this was the best Classic field ever" camp. Zenyatta is a tremendous filly but to think she faced the toughest and deepest Classic field ever is a leap of epic proportions............here's a few names from truly CLASSIC fields:

1984---Wild Again, Gate Dancer, Slew O'Gold, Desert Wine, Precisionist
1985---Proud Truth, Gate Dancer, Turkoman, Chiefs Crown
1987---Ferdinand, Alysheba, Cryptoclearance, Gulch, Afleet
1988---Alysheba, Seeking The Gold, Forty Niner, Cryptoclearance, Personal Flag
1989---Sunday Silence, Easy Goer, Cryptoclearance, Blushing John
1991---Black Tie Affair, Twilight Agenda, Unbridled, Strike The Gold, Marquetry
1998---Awesome Again, Silver Charm, Swain, Victory Gallop, Skip Away, Touch Gold

This is not even getting to the fields in the 2000's when Tiznow went back-to-back.

There is no doubt that Zenyatta ran a terrific race and it will always be a "Classic" but let's keep things in perspective.

[rpncaine]

If in fact the synthetic's are going to be around for a while (and I hope not to long) and as the Steve's have said it is a distinct third surface, then why don't the powers that be use this year as start up a "Synthetic HOY" category? Dirt HOY, Turf HOY, Synthetic HOY. Wouldn't this be the perfect time to do that?

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by rpncaine

If in fact the synthetic's are going to be around for a while (and I hope not to long) and as the Steve's have said it is a distinct third surface, then why don't the powers that be use this year as start up a "Synthetic HOY" category? Dirt HOY, Turf HOY, Synthetic HOY. Wouldn't this be the perfect time to do that?

Seems like an intelligent place to go.. I would guess that would be admitting that rubber is a third surface or "unconventional turf" That would mitigate the results of former "unconventional dirt or unconventional turf champions" G-d forbid the industry admit they made a mistake

[Travis Stone]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

The triple crown races outweigh the Breeders Cup as far as people who watch it. I read the TV ratings were low again for the BC.

Tons more people watched the Preakness I would guess.

Racing on TV starts/stops with the Derby, carries into the Preakness is society likes the winner and will only watch the Belmont if it's a big story (Triple Crown etc.)

The Breeders' Cup is a really tough sell on TV because it lasts all day and there is 30 minutes between races. People who are in the game complain about the angles used and stuff when in reality they should realize those who are fringe fans are more apt to watch/enjoy if they can see some fun angles versus the boring pan shot.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

Racing on TV starts/stops with the Derby, carries into the Preakness is society likes the winner and will only watch the Belmont if it's a big story (Triple Crown etc.)

The Breeders' Cup is a really tough sell on TV because it lasts all day and there is 30 minutes between races. People who are in the game complain about the angles used and stuff when in reality they should realize those who are fringe fans are more apt to watch/enjoy if they can see some fun angles versus the boring pan shot.

Travis if Rachel would have raced against Zenyatta the ratings for that time slot would have been wonderful.

[Travis Stone]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Travis if Rachel would have raced against Zenyatta the ratings for that time slot would have been wonderful.

Probably, but I'm speaking in non-headliner years which this was w/out that match-up.

[slotdirt]

I doubt they would have. People just don't watch horse racing, no matter what the matchup.

[Revidere]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

Racing on TV starts/stops with the Derby, carries into the Preakness is society likes the winner and will only watch the Belmont if it's a big story (Triple Crown etc.)

The Breeders' Cup is a really tough sell on TV because it lasts all day and there is 30 minutes between races. People who are in the game complain about the angles used and stuff when in reality they should realize those who are fringe fans are more apt to watch/enjoy if they can see some fun angles versus the boring pan shot.

Or enjoy a really good race call!!!

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by letswastemoney

Before you say this years BC Field would drown the horses RA beat

Horses like Gio Ponti and Twice Over and Rip Van Winkle might very well finish up the track on a dirt course for all you or anyone knows, especially Gio Ponti since there has to be a reason why Gio has been kept on grass when dirt racing is more widely available here in the States.

Would you take Macho Again or Gio Ponti in a fairly run dirt race at 10 furlongs? I would take the proven dirt horse.

This might be the worst statement I have seen and defies all rational handicapping.

Everyone says that Pro Ride is very friendly to turf horses, in fact Gio Ponti ran well on this very surface.

So if the ability on the turf, grade 1 ability does transfer to pro ride, then we saw two or three legit grade 1 winning talent run their race in the Classic yet they got drown.

How you can talk about what they would have done on dirt when they ran their race on pro ride is beyond me.

[Scurlogue Champ]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

I doubt they would have. People just don't watch horse racing, no matter what the matchup.

I concur.

[PeteMugg]

Originally Posted by Kasept

For those wanting some detail to appreciate the nuances of the campaigns...

Zenyatta ran in 5 races this year over 7 months (May 23-Nov 7) over 3 racetracks versus 33 entrants (25 horses)... 4 of which were repeats of races she ran in and won last year (Milady, Vanity, Hirsch, Lady's Secret) and one the Breeders' Cup Classic. She never left California in the 4 races and the Cup happened to be at one of the tracks she frequented most in her career (5/5). Anyway, she won all the races in which she ran, all on synthetic surfaces, and with authority.

Rachel Alexandra ran in 8 races this year over 7 months (Feb 15-Sept 5) over 7 different race tracks versus 50 entrants (47 horses). She demolished her own sex by a cumulative 40 lengths in 5 tries including 2 Oaks (Fair Grounds and Kentucky) and faced 3yo males twice, including in an American classic (Preakness) and in another highly regarded Gr. I (Haskell). She completed her year against older males in the Gr. I Woodward. Her winning a race versus elder males is an accomplishment that hadn't been done in more than 125 years in American racing.


Zenyatta beat these 25 horses in 2009:

---14 females---
Life Is Sweet (3X)
Allicansayiswow (2X)
Gambler's Justice
Champagne Eyes (2X)
Taste's Sis
Briecat (2X)
Dawn After Dawn (2X)
Hot n' Dusty
Modification
Anabaas Creation (2X)
Lethal Heat (2X)
Tidal Dance
Cocoa Beach
Made for Magic
----11 males----
Gio Ponti
Twice Over
Summer Bird
Colonel John
Richard's Kid
Awesome Gem
Regal Ransom
Mine That Bird
Rip Van Winkle
Einstein
Girolamo


Rachel Alexandra beat these 47 horses in 2009:

---23 females---
Afleet Deceit (2X)
Peach Brew
Affirmed Truth
Hello Again
Lake Lugano
My Spanx
Lil' Hottie
Bootprints
Flying Spur (2X)
Our Dahlia
Four Gifts
African Skies
War Tigress
Just Jenda
Bon Jovi Girl
Cats
Stone Legacy
Be Fair
Nan
Gabby's Golden Gal
Tweeter
Malibu Prayer
Flashing
---24 males---
Mine That Bird
Musket Man
Flying Private
Big Drama
Papa Clem (2X)
Terrain
Luv Gov
General Quarters
Friesan Fire
Pioneerof the Nile
Tone It Down
Take the Points
Summer Bird
Munnings
Duke of Mischief
Atomic Rain
Bunker Hill
Macho Again
Bullsbay
Asiatic Boy
It's a Bird
Past the Point
Cool Coal Man
Da' Tara

Call me convinced. But just to be clear, the award is non restrictive and RA and Z each faced all comers only once this year?

That 125 year accomplishment is impressive, but how much more than being the first female to win the Classic? And while interesting, is it more about what racing has become for older males?

[10 pnt move up]

wow, that list of horses RA beat is a who's who of no ones, I guess Macho Again is ok, and Summer Bird is solid, beyond that, MTB?

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

wow, that list of horses RA beat is a who's who of no ones, I guess Macho Again is ok, and Summer Bird is solid, beyond that, MTB?

7 graded stakes winners among the females and 16 more among the males.

It's not a normal year when you have horses like Macho Again and Bullsbay as legitimate graded stakes horses.

NT

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

wow, that list of horses RA beat is a who's who of no ones, I guess Macho Again is ok, and Summer Bird is solid, beyond that, MTB?

Luv Gov

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

7 graded stakes winners among the females and 16 more among the males.

It's not a normal year when you have horses like Macho Again and Bullsbay as legitimate graded stakes horses.

NT

who are these great three year old graded stake winners, point them out so I can be on the lookout for them next season?

Summer Bird
????
????

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Luv Gov

one of my favorite horses.