The Decades Most Under Appreciated Race

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

DrugS, how is that you made about 200 posts talking about the unreliable times at 6.5 furlongs at Saratoga, then you do a whole thread extolling the virtues of a 6.5 furlong race at Saratoga based mostly on time?

Not only that, when Freddy tries to point this out, you respond to EVERY OTHER REPLY in the thread, but conveniently ignore his.

it wasn't just about the time in that one race; his initial post points out other races at other tracks, as well as how the three horses in that race went on to win other grade ones, with you winning four. also has the beyer figures, and points out how they fare vs other top females. of course i'm not just trying to focus on one aspect of the post so i can pick on drugs either.

[jms62]

2007 Tampa Bay Derby Street Sense vs Any Given Saturday

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWm_o9o6TbU

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by v j stauffer

One of my favorites was Read The Footnotes in the Fountain of Youth.

Yeah - that was a certainly a great battle and two huge performances - seemed to take a toll on both horses.

Very fast race. Birdstone won an alw race in 1:42.40 at a mile and 70 yards on the card. That FOY was only a 1/5th of a second or so slower and 40 additional yards in distance.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

DrugS, how is that you made about 200 posts talking about the unreliable times at 6.5 furlongs at Saratoga, then you do a whole thread extolling the virtues of a 6.5 furlong race at Saratoga based mostly on time?

Not only that, when Freddy tries to point this out, you respond to EVERY OTHER REPLY in the thread, but conveniently ignore his.

Because Freddy's post was very dumb. The final time was obviously correct because it's consistant with how every other 6.5f race at Saratoga is timed.

As I've said hundreds of times before - and even guys like Steve Crist, Beyer's people, and NYRA's own clockers completely didn't/don't seem to realize or have the slightest clue of - is that the 6.5 furlong fractional clockings at Saratoga come back a certain set amount faster compared to other sprint distances.

If you watch the race - you'll see both ran insanely huge races. The clocking for that race was consistant with how every other 6.5f race at that track has been timed for as far back as I remember...with only one exception ... the '09 Amsterdam when everyone got to showcase their misunderstandings of that specific track and distance.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Because Freddy's post was very dumb. The final time was obviously correct because it's consistant with how every other 6.5f race at Saratoga is timed.

As I've said hundreds of times before - and even guys like Steve Crist, Beyer's people, and NYRA's own clockers completely didn't/don't seem to realize or have the slightest clue of - is that the 6.5 furlong fractional clockings at Saratoga come back a certain set amount faster compared to other sprint distances.

If you watch the race - you'll see both ran insanely huge races. The clocking for that race was consistant with how every other 6.5f race at that track has been timed for as far back as I remember.

The only thing consisent about 6.5f's races at SPA is the time is always suspect. Stop being a Fraud.. BTW You's sib goes for Shoes Wolfson 12/26..Expect a BIG one

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by freddymo

The only thing consisent about 6.5f's races at SPA is the time is always suspect. Stop being a Fraud.. BTW You's sib goes for Shoes Wolfson 12/26..Expect a BIG one

Freddy you really do have no idea what you're talking about.

You'd tell a plumber how to plumb - Tiger Woods and his Caddie how to hit a golf shot - and a ballet dancer how to dance.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Freddy you really do have no idea what you're talking about.

You'd tell a plumber how to plumb - Tiger Woods and his Caddie how to hit a golf shot - and a ballet dancer how to dance.

Speaking of plumbers your theory is leaking.. Just because many don't post here they still read your drivel awaiting the ocassional nugget of brillance you are capable of. While others stand and aplaud "the fraud" those who really know...well smell a rat..Rats need to be controled

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Speaking of plumbers your theory is leaking.. Just because many don't post here they still read your drivel awaiting the ocassional nugget of brillance you are capable of. While others stand and aplaud "the fraud" those who really know...well smell a rat..Rats need to be controled

Tell the people you're talking about that they're creepy scumbags and they need to update their spreadsheet.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by freddymo

The only thing consisent about 6.5f's races at SPA is the time is always suspect.

Can I buy you a stop-watch for Christmas?

Again - the times are consistant.

The only difference between 6.5f races at SAR - and races at other sprint distances is that the opening fractions always come back a set amount faster.. and it has a subsquent effect on the other fractions.

For simplicity sake - an opening quarter of 22.00 at 6fs equals 21.70 at 6.5fs - equals 22.40 at 7fs.

As for the Beyer in the '01 Adirondack ... it's as correct as any other fig they've ever done at that distance.

The proof is that the top two who freaked both easily won Grade 1's next out in strong time.

3rd place finisher Magic Storm got a 70...



And the other four horses who ran out of the money all bounced back and ran much faster.

Smok'n Frolic was 5th of 7 beaten 21+ lengths with a 56 Beyer. She came back to run 2nd in the Spinaway with an 86. Won the Grade 3 Tempted by 6+ lengths with an 89 and than ended her 2yo season by winning the Grade 2 Demoiselle by 4+ lengths with a 94 Beyer.

Smokn' Frolic also won a stake race going 5f at Belmont as a 2yo before she got dusted in the Adiorondack.

The real story about the '09 Amsterdam Stakes was how clueless everyone became when a timing malfuction actually did occur at Saratoga.

Instead of timing the race consistant with how every other 6.5f race at Saratoga is timed ... they opted to let NYRA's private clockers do it.

The result of that was that the '09 Amsterdam had the outright slowest opening quarter mile fraction of ALL the 6.5f races run at Saratoga this meet. I believe they came back with 22.45 for the first quarter. Even the bad fields of NY Bred MCL fillies - who went the distance on days when the track was slower - couldn't run that slow to the first quarter.

Like I said .. the 22.45 1st quarter they came back with would be equal to a 22.75 first quarter at 6f or a 23.15 first quarter at 7fs ... not entirely laughable .. but VERY laughable considering how fast the race track was that day - and how much quality speed was in the Amsterdam - and how that quality speed performed .. etc.

Steve Crist - who's normally fantastic at finding and pointing out mistakes - even reported it as though the NYRA's private clockers times cleared things up and could be trusted. What he didn't seem to realize is that their timing, right or wrong, was inconsistant with how EVERY other 6.5f race at Saratoga is timed.

It's not sinking in .... is it?

[Sightseek]

Mr. DrugS,

I think your next project for our reading pleasure should be Top Losing Efforts of the Decade.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Mr. DrugS,

I think your next project for our reading pleasure should be Top Losing Efforts of the Decade.

Every horse I've bet on this decade in the Ky Derby?

Oh wait, I suppose they had to have run well to earn this distinction.

NT

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Mr. DrugS,

I think your next project for our reading pleasure should be Top Losing Efforts of the Decade.

There's a lot of different ways to rank them... the best way would probably be by race.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Came across an old Beyer article on this race .....

Superfillies generate lofty buzz
By ANDREW BEYER

WASHINGTON - It was 24 summers ago that a pair of 2-year-olds battled down the stretch at Saratoga Race Course, displaying such speed and tenacity that they both seemed to be exceptional talents. Affirmed and Alydar were living up to the tradition that the best-bred young prospects make their marks at Saratoga, and their confrontation in the Hopeful Stakes was just a precursor to one of the most famous rivalries in the sport's history.

Racing fans do not invoke the memory of Affirmed and Alydar lightly, but spectators at Saratoga Monday saw a duel that deserved comparison with the one in 1977. A pair of 2-year-olds battled to the wire in the Adirondack Stakes as they ran 6 1/2 furlongs in 1:15.16 - faster than Affirmed's winning time of 1:15.40 at the same distance.

But the parallels to Affirmed and Alydar are limited. You and Cashier's Dream, the combatants in the Adirondack, are fillies. They both come from humble backgrounds rather than the Thoroughbred establishment. Their performances mocked the breeders and yearling buyers who spend millions of dollars to obtain the best Thoroughbred pedigrees.

Cashier's Dream was bred in Michigan by James Jackson, a small-scale horseman who also owns and trains the filly. Her sire, Service Stripe, never won a stakes race of consequence. Accordingly, few people at Churchill Downs took notice of Cashier's Dream when she started her career in a $50,000 maiden claiming race at 43-1. But she won it easily, then stepped into allowance company, where she faced You and beat her convincingly. Those two performances prompted the Team Valor Racing Syndicate to buy Cashier's Dream and put her in the care of Steve Asmussen, one of the Midwest's top trainers.

Team Valor got a quick return on its investment when Cashier's Dream zipped to a stakes victory at Churchill, running 5 1/2 furlongs in 1:02.52 and smashing the track record. Barry Irwin, the syndicate's managing partner, did some research and concluded: "No filly in history has run the distance faster - not even Ruffian."

You possesses a somewhat more respectable pedigree than her rival (her sire, You and I, was a top miler), but she too launched her career by winning a $50,000 maiden-claiming race. After her second-place finish behind Cashier's Dream in allowance company, an agent approached trainer Bobby Frankel and told him the filly was for sale. After making the purchase on behalf of owner Edmund Gann, Frankel said, "I gave her a little time off, and she was getting strong. She's a big, good-looking filly." But the trainer didn't imagine that she was capable of running the way she did at Saratoga. "How can you expect something like that?" he asked.

Cashier's Dream was the odds-on favorite in the Adirondack, and flew the first half-mile in 44.62 seconds, opening a 1 1/2-length lead. But You wouldn't let her get away and managed to stay within striking distance. The leader shifted into another gear as she turned for home, trying to shake off her pursuer. Donnie Meche, the jockey on Cashier's Dream said, "She gave me a strong burst at the top of the stretch. But the other horse ran the race of her life." You, carrying seven pounds fewer than the favorite, kept battling through the stretch and gradually wore down her rival to win by a neck. The rest of the field was 15 lengths behind the top two.

The electric timer confirmed what an extraordinary race this was. The 2-year-old fillies had run approximately as fast as a stakes quality older male, Left Bank, did on the same card. The performance produced a Beyer Speed Figure of 107 - an effort that would be good enough to win every Breeders' Cup 2-year-old race, for males as well as females, in more than a decade. The connections of both fillies were amazed.

"The race was startling," said Irwin. "Can you imagine a horse running that well and getting beat?" But in his euphoria he is trying to be realistic about the capabilities of Cashier's Dream. "She's the type who wants to go to the front. The more I watch her, the more I think she's going to be a sprinter as an older horse," he predicted. Team Valor wants its filly to get at least one Grade 1 stakes victory this year - possibly in the Spinaway at Saratoga - but Irwin is already thinking about trying to make Cashier's Dream the nation's champion sprinter as a 3-year-old.

Frankel intends to give You a short rest after the hard effort in Saratoga and then run her in two races this fall, one of them the Breeders' Cup Juvenile Fillies. But he, too, is already looking ahead to next season. If You turns out to be a solid distance runner, she would be capable of challenging males in the 3-year-old classics.

Because of the shortcomings of their pedigrees, Cashier's Dream and You aren't going to be another Affirmed and Alydar. But they surely do have the talent to be exciting performers.

(c) 2001, The Washington Post

[brianwspencer]

I was sure this thread was going to be about the 2009 Washington Park Handicap.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

There's a lot of different ways to rank them... the best way would probably be by race.

Haskin did it by best losing performance in a TC or BC race:

http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/best-...rown-race.aspx

[The Indomitable DrugS]

* Belmont Stakes - Smarty Jones 2004. The figure in defeat wasn't nearly as good as Ten Most Wanted's - but his trip was light years harder - and he ran an incredible race for over 10 furlongs before hitting a brick wall in the final furlong.

* Breeders Cup Classic - You have four performances in defeat that totally stand out head and shoulders above the rest.

Giant's Causeway in 2000, Medaglia D' Oro in 2003, Pleasantly Perfect in 2004, and Bernardini in 2006.
I didn't bet a single one of those four horses in those races - but it was pretty obvious concluding that Giant's Causeway ran at least as good as the winner, Medaglia D' Oro ran better than the winner in '03, the '03 winner PP ran extremely well with a totally impossible trip in a race that unfolded totally to Ghostzapper's benefit in '04 and Bernardini clearly ran the best race in the '06 Classic. It's too tough to split those four performances.

* BC Juvenile - Point Given in 2000. Came with an absolutely explosive finish to blow past Street Cry and just miss nailing Macho Uno for the win.

* BC Juv Fillies - Only 3 candidates. Composure just missed to an awesome 2yo filly in Storm Flag Flying. Final time was a hair faster than the Boys went in Vindication's Juvie win the same day and distance. In case anyone forgets Composure - her racing career was over after back to back Gr 1 wins in the winter at Santa Anita a few months later.
Imperial Gesture and Bella Belluchi are the other two options - both from the amazing 2001 field that produced a wicked fast final time. IG had a good trip and ran a huge number. Bella Belluchi was a soundly beaten 3rd - just ahead of You and Take Charge Lady. BB had some minor trip trouble and was stuck on what many felt was a dead rail that day.

* Breeders Cup Sprint - Swept Overboard's 4th place finish in 2001. Everything was against him in a race loaded with awesome sprinters who had much more favorable circumstances. He was beaten only a length with a 116 Beyer in a wildly underappreciated performance. He returned to Belmont one more time the following year and won the Met Mile by 5 lengths at 11/1 odds with a 122 Beyer.

* Breeders Cup Mile - Rock of Gibraltor.

* Breeders Cup Turf - Precious Passion or Milan. Take your pick.

* Breeders Cup Distaff - Surprisingly probably Hystericalady

* Kentucky Derby - Congaree easily. Hard Spun, Medaglia D'Oro, and Empire Maker distantly round this one out.

* Preakness Stakes - Take your pick. Either Street Sense with a 111 Beyer in a perfect trip hanging performance - or Sweetnorthernsaint in a 105 Beyer performance after he grabbed a quarter coming out of the gate and pressed a solid pace.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Haskin did it by best losing performance in a TC or BC race:

http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/best-...rown-race.aspx

Haskin's list wasn't terrible ... but I have no idea what he was thinking with Lookin at Lucky and Cloudy's Night.

Look at the trouble the winner had early on in the BC Juvie .. I realize LaL was a couple paths wider on the far turn ... but on that Pro-Ride it's almost an advantage to be wide on the far turn. It's certainly nothing like your typical dirt or turf track where you pay a price for going wide.

A wide closing running style is prefered if anything.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Wow - I just looked at Haskin's list again and saw his honorable mention ... The Cliff's Edge's 5th beaten 12.5 lengths in the Kentucky Derby was one of the 15 best performances in defeat?

I assume because he lost both of his shoes?? I bet TCE in that race .. go watch Medaglia D' Oro's race in the KY Derby .. that to me was easily the best performance by a horse who didn't finish in the top 3 in the Derby this decade.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Haskin's list wasn't terrible ... but I have no idea what he was thinking with Lookin at Lucky and Cloudy's Night.

Look at the trouble the winner had early on in the BC Juvie .. I realize LaL was a couple paths wider on the far turn ... but on that Pro-Ride it's almost an advantage to be wide on the far turn. It's certainly nothing like your typical dirt or turf track where you pay a price for going wide.

A wide closing running style is prefered if anything.

Wow, I thought your fellate the Pats post was retarded, but wow.

Vale of York's trouble was only in your mind. You can't possibly think if those two horses switched trips, VOY still wins.

Almost an advantage going wide?!

It's almost an advantage to lose by nose or a head!

It's almost an advantage to miss a game winning field goal!

It's almost an advantage to get a speeding ticket when you weren't speeding!!

Come to think of it, your post is so ridiculous, I'm thinking you are just baiting me into this response!

Almost, that is.

[stonegossard]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Because Freddy's post was very dumb. The final time was obviously correct because it's consistant with how every other 6.5f race at Saratoga is timed.

As I've said hundreds of times before - and even guys like Steve Crist, Beyer's people, and NYRA's own clockers completely didn't/don't seem to realize or have the slightest clue of - is that the 6.5 furlong fractional clockings at Saratoga come back a certain set amount faster compared to other sprint distances.

If you watch the race - you'll see both ran insanely huge races. The clocking for that race was consistant with how every other 6.5f race at that track has been timed for as far back as I remember...with only one exception ... the '09 Amsterdam when everyone got to showcase their misunderstandings of that specific track and distance.

Freddy's post was brilliant. As is he. How dare you insult one of Penn National's top owners in winning %.