11/11 ATR: The Great HOTY Debate

[TouchOfGrey]

I love hearing you get so passionate, Steve.

[joeydb]

That caller "John" got my blood pressure going too. Unbelievable. Of course he's entitled to his opinion, but that last bit about the result being the same no matter who Zenyatta faced on whatever surface -- absurd.

Would that have worked with other horses? "I mean, take out Gio Ponte and substitute Secretariat...what's the big deal?"

[Kasept]

It's rather remarkable how a singular performance can somehow promote complete abandonment of rationality. Zenyatta's performance was terrific... But take it for what it was, where it was and who it came against. How it magically elevates her 'year' to equal or beyond that of Rachel Alexandra's defies logic or cognition.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by Kasept

It's rather remarkable how a singular performance can somehow promote complete abandonment of rationality. Zenyatta's performance was terrific... But take it for what it was, where it was and who it came against. How it magically elevates her 'year' to equal or beyond that of Rachel Alexandra's defies logic or cognition.

Pretty astounding isn't it....

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Kasept

It's rather remarkable how a singular performance can somehow promote complete abandonment of rationality. Zenyatta's performance was terrific... But take it for what it was, where it was and who it came against. How it magically elevates her 'year' to equal or beyond that of Rachel Alexandra's defies logic or cognition.

[citycat]

Originally Posted by Kasept

It's rather remarkable how a singular performance can somehow promote complete abandonment of rationality. Zenyatta's performance was terrific... But take it for what it was, where it was and who it came against. How it magically elevates her 'year' to equal or beyond that of Rachel Alexandra's defies logic or cognition.

But horse racing is not logical. If it were then the favorites would win every horse race and we would not have the need for betting. I find it odd that people are trying to put HOY into such a logical box. It could be compared to MVP voting in other sports in that the statistical leaders do not always win MVP and there is always the debate of what "valuable" means.

I do not think there is a definition of HOY just as there is not a definition of MVP. Both horses are great choices of HOY and the choice does not have to be logical. There is subjectivity involved in which horse will win HOY and people will say that Zenyatta's "moment" was more powerful than RA and that is OK.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by citycat

But horse racing is not logical. If it were then the favorites would win every horse race and we would not have the need for betting. I find it odd that people are trying to put HOY into such a logical box. It could be compared to MVP voting in other sports in that the statistical leaders do not always win MVP and there is always the debate of what "valuable" means.

I do not think there is a definition of HOY just as there is not a definition of MVP. Both horses are great choices of HOY and the choice does not have to be logical. There is subjectivity involved in which horse will win HOY and people will say that Zenyatta's "moment" was more powerful than RA and that is OK.

WTF......Objectivity is how we are to judge. Subjective means Well Armed's Dubai World Cup, the richest race in the world), should make him HOY.

[South Beach Luv]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

WTF......Objectivity is how we are to judge. Subjective means Well Armed's Dubai World Cup, the richest race in the world), should make him HOY.

I doubt Trevor Denman will ever say this about the girls:

"She’s run another clunker"

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by citycat

But horse racing is not logical. If it were then the favorites would win every horse race and we would not have the need for betting. I find it odd that people are trying to put HOY into such a logical box. It could be compared to MVP voting in other sports in that the statistical leaders do not always win MVP and there is always the debate of what "valuable" means.

I do not think there is a definition of HOY just as there is not a definition of MVP. Both horses are great choices of HOY and the choice does not have to be logical. There is subjectivity involved in which horse will win HOY and people will say that Zenyatta's "moment" was more powerful than RA and that is OK.

Perhaps we should beg for a new eclipse award Horse of the Moment..

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Perhaps we should beg for a new eclipse award Horse of the Moment..

I like that idea....Black Beauty for me.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by citycat

I do not think there is a definition of HOY just as there is not a definition of MVP. Both horses are great choices of HOY and the choice does not have to be logical. There is subjectivity involved in which horse will win HOY and people will say that Zenyatta's "moment" was more powerful than RA and that is OK.

There is a definition of Horse of the Year. It's the horse that accomplished the most over the course of their season. There may be tangential influences, but the race record compiled and gravity thereof remains the overwhelming criteria. There is no possible interpretation of their comparative seasons that places Zenyatta even at a level of equality with Rachel Alexandra in 2009.

[Kasept]

For those wanting some detail to appreciate the nuances of the campaigns...

Zenyatta ran in 5 races this year over 7 months (May 23-Nov 7) over 3 racetracks versus 33 entrants (25 horses)... 4 of which were repeats of races she ran in and won last year (Milady, Vanity, Hirsch, Lady's Secret) and one the Breeders' Cup Classic. She never left California in the 4 races and the Cup happened to be at one of the tracks she frequented most in her career (5/5). Anyway, she won all the races in which she ran, all on synthetic surfaces, and with authority.

Rachel Alexandra ran in 8 races this year over 7 months (Feb 15-Sept 5) over 7 different race tracks versus 50 entrants (47 horses). She demolished her own sex by a cumulative 40 lengths in 5 tries including 2 Oaks (Fair Grounds and Kentucky) and faced 3yo males twice, including in an American classic (Preakness) and in another highly regarded Gr. I (Haskell). She completed her year against older males in the Gr. I Woodward. Her winning a race versus elder males is an accomplishment that hadn't been done in more than 125 years in American racing.


Zenyatta beat these 25 horses in 2009:

---14 females---
Life Is Sweet (3X)
Allicansayiswow (2X)
Gambler's Justice
Champagne Eyes (2X)
Taste's Sis
Briecat (2X)
Dawn After Dawn (2X)
Hot n' Dusty
Modification
Anabaas Creation (2X)
Lethal Heat (2X)
Tidal Dance
Cocoa Beach
Made for Magic
----11 males----
Gio Ponti
Twice Over
Summer Bird
Colonel John
Richard's Kid
Awesome Gem
Regal Ransom
Mine That Bird
Rip Van Winkle
Einstein
Girolamo


Rachel Alexandra beat these 47 horses in 2009:

---23 females---
Afleet Deceit (2X)
Peach Brew
Affirmed Truth
Hello Again
Lake Lugano
My Spanx
Lil' Hottie
Bootprints
Flying Spur (2X)
Our Dahlia
Four Gifts
African Skies
War Tigress
Just Jenda
Bon Jovi Girl
Cats
Stone Legacy
Be Fair
Nan
Gabby's Golden Gal
Tweeter
Malibu Prayer
Flashing
---24 males---
Mine That Bird
Musket Man
Flying Private
Big Drama
Papa Clem (2X)
Terrain
Luv Gov
General Quarters
Friesan Fire
Pioneerof the Nile
Tone It Down
Take the Points
Summer Bird
Munnings
Duke of Mischief
Atomic Rain
Bunker Hill
Macho Again
Bullsbay
Asiatic Boy
It's a Bird
Past the Point
Cool Coal Man
Da' Tara

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Kasept

There is a definition of Horse of the Year. It's the horse that accomplished the most over the course of their season. There may be tangential influences, but the race record compiled and gravity thereof remains the overwhelming criteria. There is no possible interpretation of their comparative seasons that places Zenyatta even at a level of equality with Rachel Alexandra in 2009.

I thought I heard Jon White on ATR explain it differently, it is simply who one thinks is 'Horse of the Year'. I'll have to review the show when I get home but that is how I thought he termed it.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by Kasept

There is a definition of Horse of the Year. It's the horse that accomplished the most over the course of their season. There may be tangential influences, but the race record compiled and gravity thereof remains the overwhelming criteria. There is no possible interpretation of their comparative seasons that places Zenyatta even at a level of equality with Rachel Alexandra in 2009.

Is the Eclipse awards definition of Horse of the Year, or is it your definition of what you think the award should be? My sense has always been that there has never been a clear-cut definition for any of the Eclipse awards, to some people's frustration and to others' preference.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Kasept

It's rather remarkable how a singular performance can somehow promote complete abandonment of rationality. Zenyatta's performance was terrific... But take it for what it was, where it was and who it came against. How it magically elevates her 'year' to equal or beyond that of Rachel Alexandra's defies logic or cognition.

Nothing like Byk on target.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by Kasept

It's rather remarkable how a singular performance can somehow promote complete abandonment of rationality. Zenyatta's performance was terrific... But take it for what it was, where it was and who it came against. How it magically elevates her 'year' to equal or beyond that of Rachel Alexandra's defies logic or cognition.

With all due respect, I think it is statements like this that prompt the emotion that you have seen in the debate on this board. People don't like being told that they are "irrational" or without cognitive ability just because they have a different opinion.

Agree to disagree. Fine. Don't tell someone that they are stupid.

[slotdirt]

I'm just really hoping Rachel Alexandra does turn into Ashado next year. I can recall watching Ashado get run down in the slop by Silmaril on the undercard of Funny Cide's unfortunate effort in the 2005 Pimlico Special. I can recall to this day a lady disconcerted with Ashado's performance coming down the stretch yelling "Come on, don't get beat by this Maryland-bred nag!"

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

With all due respect, I think it is statements like this that prompt the emotion that you have seen in the debate on this board. People don't like being told that they are "irrational" or without cognitive ability just because they have a different opinion.

Agree to disagree. Fine. Don't tell someone that they are stupid.

Just because someone doesn't have strong cognitive abilty doesnt mean they are stupid nor would Byk call anyone stupid. It isn't irrational to call Zenyatta HoY it's just iirresponsible to the award.

It was a wonderful moment in racing when a classy terrific mare beat an ok field of colts and horses. She wasn't campaigned for HoY she was pointed to win the Classsic. Congrats she was awesome and thrilled all

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

With all due respect, I think it is statements like this that prompt the emotion that you have seen in the debate on this board. People don't like being told that they are "irrational" or without cognitive ability just because they have a different opinion.

Agree to disagree. Fine. Don't tell someone that they are stupid.

Wow. "That statement" that I made was about as coldly unemotional as it could be. Not sure what alternate universe lexicon or pejorative equates what I wrote with calling someone stupid..

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Kasept

pejorative

I was thinking the same thing.