House Subcommittee Hearings

[Honu]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Rupert

You have to understand that this "hearing" was like a fixed race. The politicians had already predetermined what they want to do, which is CONTROL racings revenue streams, hence the one sided witness list. Can you inagine if the outcry when they held the baseball hearings if they didnt invite the players association reps? Hell no player would have shown up. Arthur Hancock has been saying that the sky is falling since 1990 yet it hasnt. Jack Van Berg was only invited because of a piece in the NY Post where he sounded like a bitter old guy. Jackson employes one of the most penalized trainers in the business yet was never asked about that relationship. Randy Moss has had an on air agenda since the begining of the year.It was a set up. Some of what they said may be true (in theory, since i heard mostly personal opinions that were never backed up with any facts or examples).

But the whole process was a sham. Why wasnt the RMTC represented? Why wasn't the HBPA repesented? Why werent the racetracks represented? Can you agree that this was far from a representative group? just because you agree that the is a problem with drugs doesnt mean you have to think that this was a positive.

Do you not understand that whenever racing has an issue this testimony will be referenced by both the politicians and mainstream media? Do you not understand that when politicians talk of people getting wealthy and huge amounts of revenue and billion dollar industry these are signs that they intend on taking some of that money even though there really isnt any money out there to take? Do you realize that the sport moving forward will look exactly the same on the track as it does now?

Think I'm wrong about that? Let me give you a brief reminder of what has happened in the last 10 years. When I got my trainers license in 1999 there was wide spread milkshaking, wide spread EPO use, zero steroid regulation, wide spread use of shockwave machines right up to the time horses went to the paddock, in KY we were allowed to give anti inflamatories 4 hours before post, no detention barns in NY, no surveliience barns in CA, virtually no investigators anywhere, cocaine positives, steroids in sales horses, etc. As of Jan 1, 2009 we will have dealt with all of these issues yet people like you continue to say that everything is out of control and nothing has been done. So when some of us scratch our heads when you guys complain that nothing as been done maybe you can understand where we are coming from.

Has enough been done? of course not but in my lifetime more has been done in the past 4 years than the first 36. What exactly are the feds going to do? Ban steroids? that has already been accomplished for the most part. I never heard one of the illustrious panelists talk about the so called designer drugs that the guys in CA that you despise so much are using. They arent gaining an advantage using drugs that everybody has access to.

If you love the sport in any capacity I fail to see how this will wind up a positive in the end. Higher takeout, less money for owners, and the same guys winning all the races. The breeding aspect cant be legislated and as such will not change unless guys start buying slow horses and ignoring the fast ones. Horses will still breakdown, unfortunately in big races too. Not much will change but it will cost us a lot. This is a hugely complex issue which is not exactly a government specialty.

Finally someone that can see that involving the federal government in all this is not in the best intrests of racing.

[Riot]

Now that the people with the agenda have had their sham prerequisite federal "hearing", the real danger begins as the first step to introducing legislation has just occured.

The feds have just established that the TB community cannot save itself, we are heartless and cruel to our horses, and it is up to them - and interested animal rights groups - to protect racehorses from our abuse.

Congressman Whitfield, R-KY, whose wife Connie is a VP in the Humane Society of the United States (goal: eliminate horse racing because it's an evil practice that abuses horses - HSUS also contributed campaign funds to Whitfields election) will now introduce an amendment to a current law into Congress within the next 2 months.

This amendment will have the feds establish a national racing committee to oversee horse racing. The Feds will control it for the first 2 years.

The people on this committee will be federal government folks like Whitfield, and hand-picked appointed horse racing people.

This committee will be formed and funded by an amendment to the Interstate Wagering Act, where a 1.5 - 2 % federal tax on gross takeout nationwide will be placed into law (out of the 15 billion "gambling handle" the feds think is just hangin' around somewhere) and go into federal coffers.

The money will be used to place a federally-appointed inspector at each sale and race track, to "protect the horses" and oversee what's going on.

The money will be used to establish a national health insurance pool for jockeys.

The act will be amended to include severe nationwide federal restrictions on use of drugs within the horse breeding or racing industries (no funding for testing, however), and of course have the obligatory no use of whips - ever - provision.

The horse racing world will panic and fight this (as yes, financially it means the end of the sport), and meanwhile, while the horse racing world is incensed over the takeout and control issue, the HSUS will quietly tack on an amendment in the last committee before the vote (as they secretly do very well), "for the safety and welfare of the horse", forbidding TB and STB horses from racing and training before they are 3 years of age.


The only people that saw the hearings yesterday as the farce they were is probably only 1/3 of the "horse racing world" at best - everyone else - and the public - thinks they were accurate, insightful and true.

So if anyone thinks this is going fade away, I fear you are much mistaken.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Linny

There's a reason Arthur is at Stone Farm not Claiborne.

you're right. he was a drunk when his father died, and seth was chosen to run the show. arthur got sober, started stone farm, and won two derbys before claiborne won their first.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Honu

Finally someone that can see that involving the federal government in all this is not in the best intrests of racing.

involving the feds in ANYTHING is not in the best interest!!

[Riot]

Anybody who missed it, grab a drink and here ya go:

http://energycommerce.house.gov/cmte...seracing.shtml

[Danzig]

http://www.drf.com/news/article/95687.html

drf article about the 'witness' list...

[Riot]

Great quotes from the audio archives:

Mr. Jackson says that "we need sound breeding principles."

Congress would like to make The Jockey Club put required sound breeding practices in place. "Why won't you do that, Jockey Club?"

Because to itemize and outline breeding practices "would be arbitrary and restrictive."

But why not disallow 4 x 4 inbreeding, and prohibit breeding horses that have ever been on steroids?

Hint to Congress - because breeding isn't an exact science. For example, you can't dependably breed out stupidity from humans ....

And will the horses confess to ever having been on steroids, as they go through their first breeding soundness exam?

Jess Jackson: "eliminate medication, and you'll eliminate unsound horses. They will eliminate themselves."

Hey Jess, how will that happen? By the unsound horses breaking down on track?

LOL - Arthur Hancock complains about corrective limb procedures in foals going to sales (buyers are unawares). Then Jess Jackson complains about how vet fees have increased. A congressman asks Jess what his average vet bill is. Jess says, "Well, with all the wires and screws and corrective surgeries .... " And he's PROUD to put his name on the foals he sells.

[Left Bank]

Someone may have already asked this question,but,what the hell is Randy Moss doing testifying as a racing representative?

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by Kimmeastar

Someone may have already asked this question,but,what the hell is Randy Moss doing testifying as a racing representative?

He's considered a racing expert because he's probably the best-known analyst to people outside of the industry. But, in reality, he's sounded like a F@#$%^& idiot lately.

[parsixfarms]

People can debate whether the hearing is good or bad for racing. However, on the politics of it, does anyone give any of this stuff a realistic chance of actually becoming law so long as Mitch McConnell (R-KY) is the minority leader in the Senate?

[hi_im_god]

i wonder how many pigs drowned in the midwest last week?

we should have a hearing.

or call peta.

[Travis Stone]

Government intervention would be a terrible thing. But if these hearings do serve as a catalysts towards steps towards reform, how can they be bad? If anything, hopefully they instill some drive or a greater sense of urgency than what turf writers do almost daily now.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Rupert

You have to understand that this "hearing" was like a fixed race. The politicians had already predetermined what they want to do, which is CONTROL racings revenue streams, hence the one sided witness list. Can you inagine if the outcry when they held the baseball hearings if they didnt invite the players association reps? Hell no player would have shown up. Arthur Hancock has been saying that the sky is falling since 1990 yet it hasnt. Jack Van Berg was only invited because of a piece in the NY Post where he sounded like a bitter old guy. Jackson employes one of the most penalized trainers in the business yet was never asked about that relationship. Randy Moss has had an on air agenda since the begining of the year.It was a set up. Some of what they said may be true (in theory, since i heard mostly personal opinions that were never backed up with any facts or examples).

But the whole process was a sham. Why wasnt the RMTC represented? Why wasn't the HBPA repesented? Why werent the racetracks represented? Can you agree that this was far from a representative group? just because you agree that the is a problem with drugs doesnt mean you have to think that this was a positive.

Do you not understand that whenever racing has an issue this testimony will be referenced by both the politicians and mainstream media? Do you not understand that when politicians talk of people getting wealthy and huge amounts of revenue and billion dollar industry these are signs that they intend on taking some of that money even though there really isnt any money out there to take? Do you realize that the sport moving forward will look exactly the same on the track as it does now?

Think I'm wrong about that? Let me give you a brief reminder of what has happened in the last 10 years. When I got my trainers license in 1999 there was wide spread milkshaking, wide spread EPO use, zero steroid regulation, wide spread use of shockwave machines right up to the time horses went to the paddock, in KY we were allowed to give anti inflamatories 4 hours before post, no detention barns in NY, no surveliience barns in CA, virtually no investigators anywhere, cocaine positives, steroids in sales horses, etc. As of Jan 1, 2009 we will have dealt with all of these issues yet people like you continue to say that everything is out of control and nothing has been done. So when some of us scratch our heads when you guys complain that nothing as been done maybe you can understand where we are coming from.

Has enough been done? of course not but in my lifetime more has been done in the past 4 years than the first 36. What exactly are the feds going to do? Ban steroids? that has already been accomplished for the most part. I never heard one of the illustrious panelists talk about the so called designer drugs that the guys in CA that you despise so much are using. They arent gaining an advantage using drugs that everybody has access to.

If you love the sport in any capacity I fail to see how this will wind up a positive in the end. Higher takeout, less money for owners, and the same guys winning all the races. The breeding aspect cant be legislated and as such will not change unless guys start buying slow horses and ignoring the fast ones. Horses will still breakdown, unfortunately in big races too. Not much will change but it will cost us a lot. This is a hugely complex issue which is not exactly a government specialty.

I understand what you are saying. No system is perfect. Any time there are congressional hearings on any subject, you could argue that the panelists are one-sided. When they have a hearing about child abuse, they don't get abusers on the panel to make sure that both sides are heard. That's not the way congressional hearings work.

I don't trust the feds any more than you do. However, I don't have any confidence in the governing bodies of racing to do what needs to be done.

At this point, the feds may not necessarily be needed. Those hearings may have been enough of an impetus to get the governing bodies in racing to finally get their act together.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

People can debate whether the hearing is good or bad for racing. However, on the politics of it, does anyone give any of this stuff a realistic chance of actually becoming law so long as Mitch McConnell (R-KY) is the minority leader in the Senate?

Yes. Absolutely.

First, general public opinion is definitely on the side of "save those poor innocent horses from the evil owners and trainers who drug them and run them to death" (just read the public blog comments - from horse people - after Eight Belles).

Secondly, the opinion of what appears to be an alarming portion of "interested horse racing fans" and members of the industry appears to support government intervention and control.

Third, but most importantly: the Humane Society of the United States has jumped on this. Indeed, they are front and center and leading the charge through Connie Whitfield. The HSUS is a very efficient and well-funded lobbying machine with excellent timing, and an increasing number of sympathetic lawmakers on board.

Proof - look at the head start the AR groups got on horse racing with Eight Belles - they controlled the media and public opinion. And still do.

The HSUS knows the historical timing is right to step into horse racing and impose their opinions and desires upon this tiny niche sport.

HSUS has unfortunately begun to be successful recently having legislation passed restricting ownership rights of pet dogs and cats. Legislation I could never imagine could be passed 5 or 10 years ago.

Do I think HSUS can get a law forbidding racing and training of 2-year-old TB horses passed within the next two or three years? Absolutely. The general public is entirely on their side.

Truth or reality does not matter in this fight. Only emotion and perception. This issue is cast as black and white, with only two views: either you want to save and protect abused, drugged horses with us, or you are evil.

We are no longer an agricultural society. We no longer have a broad societal experience or exposure to real animals - let alone horses or any horse sports. Many people - I believe the majority - see no reason for anybody to be allowed to "use" horses for "our own purposes".

Who would ever have believed that foxhunting and greyhound coursing would be outlawed in England, where both sports are far more ingrained into hundreds of years of societal history than in any other country on earth? And horseracing is targeted over in Europe, now, too.

[FGFan]

Originally Posted by Riot

Yes. Absolutely.

First, general public opinion is definitely on the side of "save those poor innocent horses from the evil owners and trainers who drug them and run them to death" (just read the public blog comments - from horse people - after Eight Belles).

Secondly, the opinion of what appears to be an alarming portion of "interested horse racing fans" and members of the industry appears to support government intervention and control.

Third, but most importantly: the Humane Society of the United States has jumped on this. Indeed, they are front and center and leading the charge through Connie Whitfield. The HSUS is a very efficient and well-funded lobbying machine with excellent timing, and an increasing number of sympathetic lawmakers on board.

Proof - look at the head start the AR groups got on horse racing with Eight Belles - they controlled the media and public opinion. And still do.

The HSUS knows the historical timing is right to step into horse racing and impose their opinions and desires upon this tiny niche sport.

HSUS has unfortunately begun to be successful recently having legislation passed restricting ownership rights of pet dogs and cats. Legislation I could never imagine could be passed 5 or 10 years ago.

Do I think HSUS can get a law forbidding racing and training of 2-year-old TB horses passed within the next two or three years? Absolutely. The general public is entirely on their side.

Truth or reality does not matter in this fight. Only emotion and perception. This issue is cast as black and white, with only two views: either you want to save and protect abused, drugged horses with us, or you are evil.

We are no longer an agricultural society. We no longer have a broad societal experience or exposure to real animals - let alone horses or any horse sports. Many people - I believe the majority - see no reason for anybody to be allowed to "use" horses for "our own purposes".

Who would ever have believed that foxhunting and greyhound coursing would be outlawed in England, where both sports are far more ingrained into hundreds of years of societal history than in any other country on earth? And horseracing is targeted over in Europe, now, too.

I completely agree. How many times have we seen it done with dogs and cats. Well I don't breed cats, but it's getting harder and harder to use my dogs for what they were bred to do.

I think the horseracing industry has no idea how powerful these AR groups are, and the lengths they will go to push their agenda.

This is a completely ochestrated sham by the HSUS and Connie Harriman/Whitfield.

Until the owners, breeders, tracks, trainers and anyone else involved in horseracing gets together and hires a good lobbying firm they will loose every battle. Our legislators are bombarded by lobbying efforts every day all day by the well oiled manical AR groups.

Did someone say that Randy Moss said he was a trainer? Is that true?

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by FGFan

I completely agree. How many times have we seen it done with dogs and cats. Well I don't breed cats, but it's getting harder and harder to use my dogs for what they were bred to do.

I think the horseracing industry has no idea how powerful these AR groups are, and the lengths they will go to push their agenda.

This is a completely ochestrated sham by the HSUS and Connie Harriman/Whitfield.

Until the owners, breeders, tracks, trainers and anyone else involved in horseracing gets together and hires a good lobbying firm they will loose every battle. Our legislators are bombarded by lobbying efforts every day all day by the well oiled manical AR groups.

Did someone say that Randy Moss said he was a trainer? Is that true?

What were your dogs bred to do?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by FGFan

Did someone say that Randy Moss said he was a trainer? Is that true?

He also said, "I'm Spartacus"

Naw, I didn't hear him say he was ever a trainer.

[FGFan]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

What were your dogs bred to do?

LOL..not fight if that's what you think.

I have hunting and herding dogs. Black & Tan Coonhounds, Catahoulas, Pit bulls and Dogos(Argentian Mastiffs), and a useless Basenji, she doesn't even like to be outside. She's in bed under the covers right now.

Our dogs hunt everything from large game, bears, big cats, wild boar hogs, and deer, mainly blood trailers for deer with our dogs, and smaller game coons and such. The catahoulas also herd mean, charging longhorns and brahmas.

But because our dogs are used to stop prey and will do it aggressively the AR people want us stopped. Actually they want all hunting stopped. So it goes to legislators and as Riot said we are mainly an urban society, so all the legislators don't understand what goes on when a 3000 lb bull gets loose and is running the roads with nothing to stop them but one of our dogs.
The odd thing is they never worry about the dogs only those 500 lb wild boar hogs with razor sharp tusks that are 3 inches long and would as soon kill them and then eat them.
On the other side the Dept. of Wildlife & Fisheries is always trying to allow for the use of our bay and catch dogs to hunt the wild boar hogs that destroy 1000's of acres of marsh land and levees. They have found the most efficient way to hunt wild boar hogs is with dogs. As well our dogs the Catahoula is not a man-made species they are self-developed from the dogs that DeSoto brought here in the 1500's during the exploration of the Mississippi River.

I've done this dance with the politicians, it rarely ends up good even in a rural state such as mine. As an owner you should be very worried about the reprucussions of these types of hearings.

This is an ochestrated event led by Connie Harriman as ploy for the HSUS.
I believe in animal welfare, I believe there are some very shady trainers. But the Fed intervening led by a bunny huggers husband is not going to achieve anything but bad legislation.

[FGFan]

Originally Posted by Riot

He also said, "I'm Spartacus"

Naw, I didn't hear him say he was ever a trainer.

HaHaHa....

I haven't had time to listen to it yet, as I expected it doesn't sound good.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by FGFan

LOL..not fight if that's what you think.

I have hunting and herding dogs. Black & Tan Coonhounds, Catahoulas, Pit bulls and Dogos(Argentian Mastiffs), and a useless Basenji, she doesn't even like to be outside. She's in bed under the covers right now.

Our dogs hunt everything from large game, bears, big cats, wild boar hogs, and deer, mainly blood trailers for deer with our dogs, and smaller game coons and such. The catahoulas also herd mean, charging longhorns and brahmas.

But because our dogs are used to stop prey and will do it aggressively the AR people want us stopped. Actually they want all hunting stopped. So it goes to legislators and as Riot said we are mainly an urban society, so all the legislators don't understand what goes on when a 3000 lb bull gets loose and is running the roads with nothing to stop them but one of our dogs.
The odd thing is they never worry about the dogs only those 500 lb wild boar hogs with razor sharp tusks that are 3 inches long and would as soon kill them and then eat them.
On the other side the Dept. of Wildlife & Fisheries is always trying to allow for the use of our bay and catch dogs to hunt the wild boar hogs that destroy 1000's of acres of marsh land and levees. They have found the most efficient way to hunt wild boar hogs is with dogs. As well our dogs the Catahoula is not a man-made species they are self-developed from the dogs that DeSoto brought here in the 1500's during the exploration of the Mississippi River.

I've done this dance with the politicians, it rarely ends up good even in a rural state such as mine. As an owner you should be very worried about the reprucussions of these types of hearings.

This is an ochestrated event led by Connie Harriman as ploy for the HSUS.
I believe in animal welfare, I believe there are some very shady trainers. But the Fed intervening led by a bunny huggers husband is not going to achieve anything but bad legislation.

I completely disagree with your characterization of the hearings as a ploy for the HSUS. I think that the majority of people in the business think that major changes need to be made. I think the main point of contention amongst people in the business is the question of whether federal government intervention is needed or not.

I don't know why you would be so sure that the federal government would write bad legislation in this case. They're not going to do anything without getting input from people in the business. That was why they had the hearings and had an expert panel. I don't know how any of you could claim that the people on the panel were not qualified to give advice to the committee. You had Dr McIlwraith who is considered by many to be the top equine surgeon in the country. You had the head of the Jockey's Club, the head of the NTRA, the head of the CHRB, a hall of fame trainer, a state vet, etc. How can anyone say with a straight face that this was some kind of farce. That is absurd.

If you guys could have picked 2 additional people to be on the panel, who would you have picked? Do you really think that would have made a big difference? I don't. I think you had very compelling witnesses on that panel. If you would have had a couple of big-time trainers up there who claimed that no major changes need to be made, do you think that anyone would have believed them? Do you think that they would have had any credibility? The people on that panel had no reason to lie. If you had a couple of big-time trainers up there, they would have had every reason to lie.