6/14 (CD): Stephen Foster Day

[Scurlogue Champ]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

They are vastly superior on dirt - that seems as obvious as them being vastly inferior going long on the turf.

Agreed.

Grasshopper could have probably won this year's Dubai World Cup if Curlin wouldn't have gone.

Diamond Stripes isn't a top class horse over here, and he rocked them in the mile.

Sprint is no contest. That Indiana Downs shipper who won his eleventh in a row on Thursday at Churchill could probably win that one.

[jcs11204]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

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hockey... use the drf plus... and go look at the horse's i named.... hard spun maybe ?
omg

[jcs11204]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

...

as a 3 yr old... grasshopper would have defeated big brown... his form is off now.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Scurlogue Champ

I can't argue with your points here, especially the last sentence.

But I must stick to my guns in saying that their top class on turf are superior to our top class on turf. I know the statistics from the Breeders' Cup, and last year's results were baffling to me.

I think a good example is Powerscourt coming over and making Kitten's Joy look like a crow in the Arlington Million. That was a horse that was third string for Coolmore, and absolutely stroked that race two years in a row.

On certain days, we can beat them on our home turf. But overall, I am strongly convinced that they are much better than our bunch.

We can pick examples out all night. Lure was better than any turf miler I have seen from Europe and Manila is at least as good as any euro I have seen period. But that doesnt mean much. Obviously the euros have top turf horses and different style racing but I disagree with the idea that european horses are superior on the whole than American horses.

[Scurlogue Champ]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

We can pick examples out all night. Lure was better than any turf miler I have seen from Europe and Manila is at least as good as any euro I have seen period. But that doesnt mean much. Obviously the euros have top turf horses and different style racing but I disagree with the idea that european horses are superior on the whole than American horses.

I never would assert that European horses are superior than American horses on the whole, and I don't believe that at all.

The only statement I stand behind is that their top class grass runners are superior to our top class turfers.

That is all.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Scurlogue Champ

I never would assert that European horses are superior than American horses on the whole, and I don't believe that at all.

The only statement I stand behind is that their top class grass runners are superior to our top class turfers.

That is all.

But the reason that an American horse (like Curlin) will have a hard time winning the ARC isn't because they arent good enough, but because the style of racing and the course not to mention the ground are totally different than anything they have ever encountered, which was the original arguement.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

What does the 115 Beyer have to do with it? Beyers are lower on turf (and less relevant) and they don't make beyers for euro races so I have no idea what those horses are running. I also doubt Curlin will be as good on dirt, but I'm not going to rule out the possibility of it happening because it would add some more excitement to a very dull year.

When European horses come run in the BC Turf (mind you we don't always get their best), they often run 110+ Beyers. If you don't think they're running at least the equivalent of that in the Arc.. I don't know what to say.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Scurlogue Champ

I never would assert that European horses are superior than American horses on the whole, and I don't believe that at all.

The only statement I stand behind is that their top class grass runners are superior to our top class turfers.

That is all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWS-FoXbjVI

[Scurlogue Champ]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

But the reason that an American horse (like Curlin) will have a hard time winning the ARC isn't because they arent good enough, but because the style of racing and the course not to mention the ground are totally different than anything they have ever encountered, which was the original arguement.

That is a point I will consider, especially if Curlin romps in some grass race here and then gets stroked over there due to layout and ground condition.

I appreciate the banter.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Scurlogue Champ

That is a point I will consider, especially if Curlin romps in some grass race here and then gets stroked over there due to layout and ground condition.

I appreciate the banter.

Remember one thing about big hype european horses, they often run in small fields, aided by rabbits and will often only race when the "ground is suitable". That doesnt mean they all do it but cupcake city is often in effect. The funny thing is that we used to look down on the Euros because they would hype a horse off of one big win like it was the second coming of Mill Reef and now we do the same thing over here (see Big Brown)

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

When European horses come run in the BC Turf (mind you we don't always get their best), they often run 110+ Beyers. If you don't think they're running at least the equivalent of that in the Arc.. I don't know what to say.

Didn't you bring up the beyer thing as a reference to Curlin essentially saying that he probably can't run 115 beyers on turf but he can on dirt? I don't even know why you brought it up. . . I don't disagree with you that the horses in the Arc probably run that kind of fig (although, this is a dangerous and worthless assumption - imagine if beyers existed in Europe and not here and people were just assuming that all the top horses here were running 115s) but it just seems like a really strange way to look at things when beyers don't exist for European racing and beyers on turf aren't really the most accurate way to assess a performance. Curlin can beat any dirt horse in the world, so if he was just as good on the turf (which probably isn't the case) why couldn't he compete against top turf horses?

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by jcs11204

hockey... use the drf plus... and go look at the horses i named.... hard spun maybe ?
omg

Hard Spun was a pretty good horse - but he didn't accomplish as much as Big Brown. I don't think he was much faster, either. He was PROBABLY better but I don't know and it doesn't really matter either way. Grasshopper sucks and I'm not even going to entertain the notion that he is/was better than Big Brown. The funny thing is that I don't even like Big Brown - but his best races (KY and FL Derbies) were decent races compared to last year's crop.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by jcs11204

and i did say whats on my mind
YOUR NOT VERY FUNNY
TO ME, YOUR NOT FUNNY AT ALL

I think he's pretty funny.

Looking!

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Since the majority of our important racing has been on dirt and the euros almost never beat us there couldnt you say that they are inferior to us? As a matter of fact we beat them a hell of a lot more on the turf than they beat us on the dirt. I have seen lots of superior euros come here and lose. I have also seen lots of mediocre euros come here and improve, often bleeders due to lasix use. Are they superior also? We ran 4 BC races on the turf last year in soggy conditions that should have favored the euros yet they won zero. Of the last 13 BC turf races they have won 4, hardly dominant. I remember a horse named Var who was just a horse over here, was sent to France and became the top rated sprinter in Europe. Turf horses in this country are still not really desired and are considered 2nd class citizens at least until they show they can be stakes horses. to be fair there are a whole lot more good American turf horses than there are european dirt horses. If dirt racing was eliminated in the US and the breeders and trainers concentrated strictly on turf racing, the euros would soon be second class. And that is actually a plausible situation.

i saw a graphic (perhaps before last years or the previous years arl million) that showed that euros didn't beat us nearly as much as it was perceived....but good luck arguing the reality of the situation. it's like the continued fable of pimlico benefitting early speed due to it's tight turns.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by jcs11204

3 ? omg hockey i like you and all but 3, wow even 4 ?

rags to riches....curlin... street sense.... hard spun

i could argue tiago... lears princess and lady joanee and grasshopper.... as 3 yr olds.

what has that got to do with anything?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I was just defending the position someone took that Curlin, as far as his position amongst racehorses all-time is concerned, would achieve a higher reputation if he were to run on grass and be successful at the top level.

From your reply to that post, you seemed to assume that the point of running on grass was to increase his stud value, but that wasn't what was being said by the other poster. I brought up Secretariat as an example of a dirt horse switching to the turf in a sporting move.

One could also mention Buckpasser, who I think was planning for a tilt at the Arc in France at 4 and was run in the Tidal or Bowling Green at Belmont to get a feel for turf. Because of some shoeing complications, he didn't handle it particularly well, and finished 3rd, ending his international travel plans. Unfortunately, it also ended a 15-race win streak, which would have tied him with Citation well before Cigar did with that cheesy manufactured race at Arlington.

Hopefully, Jess Jackson ups the ante of his sportsmanship by moving this horse to grass as opposed to just trying to break the pointless all-time money record or sending Curlin to Japan for the Japan Cup Dirt to face another group of no-hopers as he did in Dubai...

i think it would definitely move curlin up should he race in the arc, and actually win-altho i have a hard time believing either will happen.

a lot gets lost in translation imo on this board. the other day at a meeting a man talked about how much of a conversation involves body language, tone of voice, etc. he's right.
i got the idea from some posters that they thought he should run on turf to increase his stud fee, which i also don't think is the case. being a smart strike, i think most already assume the turf is there in his pedigree.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Scurlogue Champ

She was fairly common over in France... Not terrible, but not clashing heads with the best.

i think it has to do mostly with the cut in the ground--they want it VERY soft over there, and i would think they send those who don't like it that way over here, where they can get a much firmer course.
i'd imagine they'd relish the turf here on the days we take off due to weather. and i don't think we take off due to the safety issue-it's more the fear of tearing up the course in the soft going, and not having anything to run on in the days to come.
racing over there is completely different, in that they have short festivals, no worries about keeping a turf course viable for a few months like we have over here.