Librarians, Keepers of the Liberty

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Why would Black families need any government help if the 1950's were so hunky-dory?

And I have read the guy. I get very skeptical when a person refers to one "expert". And if you mention Bill O'Reilly in the same sentence as Thomas Sowell, I am going to have huge problems. O'Reilly showed his true stripes already trying to battle a silly comedian. O'Reilly is the actor for the right that need entertainment versus substance. Same with Limbaugh. Same with James Corvell or whatever that I dont listen to anymore for the left. These guys are entertainers.

O'Reilly is an a$$ and a clown, the others are entertainers, you are corrrect. I think Rush is one of the most talented entertainers to come along.

Thomas Sowell is in another league entirely. He is a man of substance and no BS. I'll have to check out the article that S2S mentions about buying a gun to see what was up with that. I don't think it could have simply been instructions on how to buy a semi-automatic weapon.

The little education aside from Sowell...

We dont have teacher's Unions in Texas so we are not in any way powerful. But the voucher's started by Republicans in this state are a crock of BS. If you want to get into vouchers in my state, be prepared to be very dissappointed by Republicans. The agenda is very clear.

[Downthestretch55]

Well, I just got back from reading this entire thread from the very first page.
I must say, it's a very interesting "study".
Some are very adamant about telling you WHY you should believe as they do...because they believe the propaganda of someone that has already told them to accept. WHY? I'm sure they won't be able to tell you unless they mouth the words of others, (see pundits cited).
Then we get to the HOW (tactics). The same ones use a lame practice called "baiting". They throw out an absurdity and if you "bite" or correct a misstatement, inaccuracies, misfacts, insults or twisting of words ensues. Gottcha again. Maybe there will even be some response to something you didn't even say!
Next comes the frustration caused by this...name calling and labeling.
Then it's back to "baiting".
The "tactic" cycle is quite obvious. Round and round we go.

Notice that I make little mention of the "arguements" put forth, or debating.
Simply put, some of the "arguements" are indefensible. When some try to support "their" views, they rely on words from another site's author to provide credence for them. If you don't agree, it's back to "baiting"...safe tactic that it is, unless someone with insight sees through the charade and calls it out.
Just like I did.

Now watch the tender nerves I touched respond. I can't wait.

DTS

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Well, I just got back from reading this entire thread from the very first page.
I must say, it's a very interesting "study".
Some are very adamant about telling you WHY you should believe as they do...because they believe the propaganda of someone that has already told them to accept. WHY? I'm sure they won't be able to tell you unless they mouth the words of others, (see pundits cited).
Then we get to the HOW (tactics). The same ones use a lame practice called "baiting". They throw out an absurdity and if you "bite" or correct a misstatement, inaccuracies, misfacts, insults or twisting of words ensues. Gottcha again. Maybe there will even be some response to something you didn't even say!
Next comes the frustration caused by this...name calling and labeling.
Then it's back to "baiting".
The "tactic" cycle is quite obvious. Round and round we go.

Notice that I make little mention of the "arguements" put forth, or debating.
Simply put, some of the "arguements" are indefensible. When some try to support "their" views, they rely on words from another site's author to provide credence for them. If you don't agree, it's back to "baiting"...safe tactic that it is, unless someone with insight sees through the charade and calls it out.
Just like I did.

Now watch the tender nerves I touched respond. I can't wait.

DTS

Well,
When someone disagreed with BB, he concluded the person "just hated the Jewish people." For that, I label him a (reverse) bigot. That I did.

When BB supports Dixie's extreme wish to turn the Palestinians into dust, I think that's a stupid position. For that I label them both idiots. That too I did.

When I asked BB simple questions about topics I will disccuss this week at both my favorite Jewish Deli and my favorite Arab coffeehouse and he refers me to his previous non-responsive "response" and when I send him a nicely worded PM that he ignores and simply continues to recite others thoughts.... well, I find that weak and, yes, cowardly. So, that I also did as well.

There are three schools of thought to resolving the Palestinian - Israeli conflict:

1. Single State
2. Independent State
3. Do nothing, leave it alone and keep the "issue."

I can talk about 1 or 2. When BB and others spout off about what their precious "esteemed" authors say, well that's just an effort to "keep the issue," is without original thought and yes, you and I and anyone else with a nominally open mind can see right through it.

So, I consider him a bigot, a coward and a fool (kinder substitution for idiot).

If you were wondering about where I was coming from, I hope this helps.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

Well,
When someone disagreed with BB, he concluded the person "just hated the Jewish people." For that, I label him a (reverse) bigot. That I did.

When BB supports Dixie's extreme wish to turn the Palestinians into dust, I think that's a stupid position. For that I label them both idiots. That too I did.

When I asked BB simple questions about topics I will disccuss this week at both my favorite Jewish Deli and my favorite Arab coffeehouse and he refers me to his previous non-responsive "response" and when I send him a nicely worded PM that he ignores and simply continues to recite others thoughts.... well, I find that weak and, yes, cowardly. So, that I also did as well.

There are three schools of thought to resolving the Palestinian - Israeli conflict:

1. Single State
2. Independent State
3. Do nothing, leave it alone and keep the "issue."

I can talk about 1 or 2. When BB and others spout off about what their precious "esteemed" authors say, well that's just an effort to "keep the issue," is without original thought and yes, you and I and anyone else with a nominally open mind can see right through it.

So, I consider him a bigot, a coward and a fool (kinder substitution for idiot).

If you were wondering about where I was coming from, I hope this helps.

S2S,
I didn't mention any names.
The "baiting" tactic was one that came up again and again, as did the avoidance of answering very direct questions.
I'll continue to leave names out of it. It's kind of like "discuss ideas, not people" as Somerfrost suggested.
btw, of course I agree that the Palestinians should have their own independent state. At this point, I'm sure they'd be happy just to have fresh drinking water and electricity.
I'd love to see the world find its way to peace. If this "microcosm" of a thread indicates more of a "macro" view...I don't hold out much hope, but then again...there's always a little possibility.
DTS

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

Well,
When someone disagreed with BB, he concluded the person "just hated the Jewish people." For that, I label him a (reverse) bigot. That I did.

When BB supports Dixie's extreme wish to turn the Palestinians into dust, I think that's a stupid position. For that I label them both idiots. That too I did.

When I asked BB simple questions about topics I will disccuss this week at both my favorite Jewish Deli and my favorite Arab coffeehouse and he refers me to his previous non-responsive "response" and when I send him a nicely worded PM that he ignores and simply continues to recite others thoughts.... well, I find that weak and, yes, cowardly. So, that I also did as well.

There are three schools of thought to resolving the Palestinian - Israeli conflict:

1. Single State
2. Independent State
3. Do nothing, leave it alone and keep the "issue."

I can talk about 1 or 2. When BB and others spout off about what their precious "esteemed" authors say, well that's just an effort to "keep the issue," is without original thought and yes, you and I and anyone else with a nominally open mind can see right through it.

So, I consider him a bigot, a coward and a fool (kinder substitution for idiot).

If you were wondering about where I was coming from, I hope this helps.

I don't have a lot of in-depth knowledge about the Palestinian/Israeli issue, but I would like to know a bit more about the two options. How would a single state work, is that even an option? What the best solution in your eyes? What are the real impediments to solving this thing in your opinion.
I know these are the questions everyone has wanted the answer to for like fifty years, but if S2S were calling the shots, what would happen first?

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

I have never used the word "liberal" ... you can look up all of my posts and you won't find that word ... except in this post.

The word I use to describe people whose political beliefs are contrary to mine is "leftist" ... which means someone who believes in statism and collectivism and government control of people's lives.

On the other hand ... a "liberal" is someone who believes in freedom ... and the right of individuals to live their lives without suppression or coercion by the government. A "liberal" is almost the exact opposite of a "leftist." And that's how I describe my political and economic beliefs ... I am a liberal ... I believe in individual freedom.

Sorry BB to lump you in with those. I went back and looked and you are right, you used leftist and not liberal. My mistake. Those I have mentioned though have used liberal as a negative term which is my beef with them. You really need both sides, not just one.

[Downthestretch55]

That Sowell article was indeed interesting.
Here are some of his words:

Most blacks are working people and taxpayers, who are not benefiting from the welfare state programs of the Democrats or from affirmative action. Many live in places where they are more likely than whites to become victims of the violent criminals that liberal judges turn loose and liberal governors pardon.

Notice the shading.
1) Yes, blacks are working people and taxpayers (nod your head if you agree)
2) "Who are not benefiting from the welfare state programs of the Democrats or from affirmative action." Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't "welfare reform" occur under the Clinton administration? As far as affirmative action, I think that goes back to Johnson...but it certainly doesn't benefit caucasians.
3)...more likely than whites to become victims of the violent criminals that
liberal judges (unnamed, no case law cited), turn loose and liberal governors
(again unnamed) pardon. Nice try Sowell. Lack of substantiation to support this outrageous statement has a few believers that are not smart enough to see through this claim nodding their heads again. Others would demand specificty to the aforesaid claims, and rightly so.

The article goes on to attack teacher's unions. The greatest tragedy in public education, in my opinion as one who has worked in this field for a very long time, has been the enactment of "No Child Left Behind" legislation, passed by the current Republican administration. Teachers are leaving the profession in droves rather than "teach to the test", while the drop out rate continues to soar.

Sowell certainly has views. Lack of substantiation and honesty diminishes their substance, depite his valiant efforts to "shade".

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

I don't have a lot of in-depth knowledge about the Palestinian/Israeli issue, but I would like to know a bit more about the two options. How would a single state work, is that even an option? What the best solution in your eyes? What are the real impediments to solving this thing in your opinion.
I know these are the questions everyone has wanted the answer to for like fifty years, but if S2S were calling the shots, what would happen first?

ARL,
Well here's a couple links. The frst is from the U.S. State Department. The second is from a global policy forum. I include the second only because it has links to various articles/opinions. You can can substitute for the second link by typing "middle east peace failure" into your favorite search engine and go from there. It won't take long to develop a decent understanding.

Personally, I support the latest effort of the US/Russia/EU/UNations....

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2003/20062.htm

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security.../roadindex.htm

Originally Posted by pgardn

Why would Black families need any government help if the 1950's were so hunky-dory?

And I have read the guy. I get very skeptical when a person refers to one "expert". And if you mention Bill O'Reilly in the same sentence as Thomas Sowell, I am going to have huge problems.

Black families didn't need government "help" then ... or ever ... and the ones who didn't fall for it ... are the ones who live next door and up the street from me ... or are professors at Stanford.

Thomas Sowell is a serious scholar and brilliant intellectual; Billow (Full of Hot Air) Reilly is an entertainer who interviews politicians and porn stars ... there is absolutely no commonality among them.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Black families didn't need government "help" then ... or ever ... and the ones who didn't fall for it ... are the ones who live next door and up the street from me ... or are professors at Stanford.

Thomas Sowell is a serious scholar and brilliant intellectual; Billow (Full of Hot Air) Reilly is an entertainer who interviews politicians and porn stars ... there is absolutely no commonality among them.

That would be on Bigot Blvd?

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

I'll have to check out the article that S2S mentions about buying a gun to see what was up with that. I don't think it could have simply been instructions on how to buy a semi-automatic weapon.

There is not now ... nor has there ever been ... such a link at townhall.com.

It's a site for serious economic and political commentary.

Lying leftists will say anything to denigrate those who disagee with and disprove their sophomoric contentions.

Originally Posted by pgardn

The little education aside from Sowell...

We dont have teacher's Unions in Texas so we are not in any way powerful. But the voucher's started by Republicans in this state are a crock of BS. If you want to get into vouchers in my state, be prepared to be very dissappointed by Republicans. The agenda is very clear.

It doesn't surprise me that leftists are adamantly opposed to poor black families being able to choose the schools that their children go to.

The leftists are deathly afraid that the children might learn something other than the straight leftist indoctrination.

They love poor blacks ... except when those poor blacks make an effort to leave the plantation.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

ARL,
Well here's a couple links. The frst is from the U.S. State Department. The second is from a global policy forum. I include the second only because it has links to various articles/opinions. You can can substitute for the second link by typing "middle east peace failure" into your favorite search engine and go from there. It won't take long to develop a decent understanding.

Personally, I support the latest effort of the US/Russia/EU/UNations....

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2003/20062.htm

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security.../roadindex.htm

S2S,
The first site presents an interesting framework. I agree with much of it also.
However, today's events (the deaths of 18 Palestinians and 1 Israeli) seem to give reason to believe that this will not happen soon enough.
Israel needs to abide by this clause:

Israeli leadership issues unequivocal statement affirming its commitment to the two-state vision of an independent, viable, sovereign Palestinian state living in peace and security alongside Israel, as expressed by President Bush, and calling for an immediate end to violence against Palestinians everywhere.

I truely hope there are better efforts from both sides to find a peaceful resolution.

DTS

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

Sorry BB to lump you in with those. I went back and looked and you are right, you used leftist and not liberal. My mistake. Those I have mentioned though have used liberal as a negative term which is my beef with them. You really need both sides, not just one.

Thanks for taking the trouble to do so.

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

That Sowell article was indeed interesting.
Here are some of his words:

Most blacks are working people and taxpayers, who are not benefiting from the welfare state programs of the Democrats or from affirmative action. Many live in places where they are more likely than whites to become victims of the violent criminals that liberal judges turn loose and liberal governors pardon.

Notice the shading.
1) Yes, blacks are working people and taxpayers (nod your head if you agree)
2) "Who are not benefiting from the welfare state programs of the Democrats or from affirmative action." Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't "welfare reform" occur under the Clinton administration? As far as affirmative action, I think that goes back to Johnson...but it certainly doesn't benefit caucasians.
3)...more likely than whites to become victims of the violent criminals that
liberal judges (unnamed, no case law cited), turn loose and liberal governors
(again unnamed) pardon. Nice try Sowell. Lack of substantiation to support this outrageous statement has a few believers that are not smart enough to see through this claim nodding their heads again. Others would demand specificty to the aforesaid claims, and rightly so.

The article goes on to attack teacher's unions. The greatest tragedy in public education, in my opinion as one who has worked in this field for a very long time, has been the enactment of "No Child Left Behind" legislation, passed by the current Republican administration. Teachers are leaving the profession in droves rather than "teach to the test", while the drop out rate continues to soar.

Sowell certainly has views. Lack of substantiation and honesty diminishes their substance, depite his valiant efforts to "shade".

All of Dr. Sowell's assertions have been extensively researched and meticulously documented ... by him ... in his books. He is one of the most respected and honored scholars ... held so by colleagues of all political beliefs ... in the country ... and indeed the world.

Today's column is a brief commentary which summarizes some of those research findings. If you want all the details ... read his many books.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

It doesn't surprise me that leftists are adamantly opposed to poor black families being able to choose the schools that their children go to.

The leftists are deathly afraid that the children might learn something other than the straight leftist indoctrination.

They love poor blacks ... except when those poor blacks make an effort to leave the plantation.

You've reached bottom.

Just babbling out random bull**** sayings, not answering the IMPORTANT questions posed to you and ranting like a child who decided to spill his milk on purpose.

You should pay attention to this important old Armenian proverb.....

"Do not try to explain away as a child that which you choose not to defend as a man."

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

All of Dr. Sowell's assertions have been extensively researched and meticulously documented ... by him ... in his books. He is one of the most respected and honored scholars ... held so by colleagues of all political beliefs ... in the country ... and indeed the world.

Today's column is a brief commentary which summarizes some of those research findings. If you want all the details ... read his many books.

BB,
I'll take a pass about reading his books. His article does not provide documentation. For a "scholar" to put out claims as he has gains no respect from me.
At least I read the article you put out.
Now, I'm going to take my wonderful dog for a nice walk. Maybe we'll find some trees that will be spared the fate of becoming paper to become one of Sowell's books. I'll take time to talk to the tree. It makes about as much sense. And when my dog lifts his leg, his commentary on Sowell will confirm mine. Long live the trees!!!
Spare them the fate of becoming matter on which the words of fools are printed.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

ARL,
Well here's a couple links. The frst is from the U.S. State Department. The second is from a global policy forum. I include the second only because it has links to various articles/opinions. You can can substitute for the second link by typing "middle east peace failure" into your favorite search engine and go from there. It won't take long to develop a decent understanding.

Personally, I support the latest effort of the US/Russia/EU/UNations....

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2003/20062.htm

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security.../roadindex.htm

thanks, well we didn't make it through the first phase without a total collapse.
When I read the roadmap the first thing that comes to mind is it's just too complicated. I'm just not confident in man's ability to resolve such mammoth and historical conflicts by a step by step plan involving four major global entities that never seem to agree on much. How many of the parties are acting in good faith and what is the mechanism by which the Quartet enforces the Road Map? I'm not optimistic.

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Black families didn't need government "help" then ... or ever ... and the ones who didn't fall for it ... are the ones who live next door and up the street from me ... or are professors at Stanford.

Thomas Sowell is a serious scholar and brilliant intellectual; Billow (Full of Hot Air) Reilly is an entertainer who interviews politicians and porn stars ... there is absolutely no commonality among them.

So how come the black families "fell" for it in such large numbers compared other groups? Because of course Black Family income was right up there with white families in the 50's... snicker, snicker. The civil rights movement of the 60's was caused by the welfare of the 50's? Give me a break.

Thomas Sowell is held close to the right because he is very bright and had no problem making things work. He is a very bright gadfly. I wonder how good things would have gone for him if he was an everyday joe.
Its this little characteristic called empathy. A trait very unique to humans. Can one actually put themselves in another's shoes and know what they have gone through. Or do they even attempt such an exercise. There are some people that have never ever tried. Or find comfort by calling the failures lazy. Because that is the easy way out. So a large number of black people became lazy in the 50's and 60's because of handouts...Some people just blame others for failing without really trying to get to the heart of the problem. That is easy. Some people get screwed and call the whole system rotten because they personally got screwed. I have seen it all. I like the big picture, not the little ancedotal situations that are not representative of the whole story... people love to use their own little favorite stories to back their claims.