6/14 (CD): Stephen Foster Day

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by Scurlogue Champ

Our top class grass horses are inferior to top class European horses on the turf. Not even a contest.

That's like saying our sprinters in the Olympics aren't superior to the Polish 100 meter runners.

Different ballgame

In general, obviously, you're right. But there's nothing to say that America can't produce a grass horse who could compete with the euros. If somehow Curlin ended up being just as good on grass as he is on dirt he could probably compete. Personally, I think Barbaro could've won some big European turf races.

[Danzig]

i just don't know that a horse who is used to running on hard, fast tracks can then run over a hard turf track and then be set to run on the mush overseas. seriously, the cut in the ground over there is nothing to sneeze at. and it matters tremendously. even if curlin ran at arlington or monmouth, in no way would that course compare to what he'd be on in france.

but good luck to him and his connections. they will surely need it. just remember horses like george washington, who look like champs on the turf over there, but look like fish out of water here in the classic on dirt.

[Scurlogue Champ]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

In general, obviously, you're right. But there's nothing to say that America can't produce a grass horse who could compete with the euros. If somehow Curlin ended up being just as good on grass as he is on dirt he could probably compete. Personally, I think Barbaro could've won some big European turf races.

If Barbaro could've, then Big Brown surely can. Maybe they should point him for the Arc.

I mean, he won his maiden on grass by a pole beating a bunch of shitboxes.

Barbaro's turf races were against shitty competition, and people act like he could have won the Epsom Derby off of the Delaware Futurity.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

In general, obviously, you're right. But there's nothing to say that America can't produce a grass horse who could compete with the euros. If somehow Curlin ended up being just as good on grass as he is on dirt he could probably compete. Personally, I think Barbaro could've won some big European turf races.

I find it hard to believe that Curlin will be as good on turf as he is on dirt, and I'm as big of a Smart Strike on the turf fan as anyone. He's been trained his entire life to run on one surface, and how many American horses do we see running 115+ Beyers on the grass? It'll take at least that to compete with the Europeans on grass. He could be a very good turf horse and still be shy of what it would take to be competitive in a race like the Arc.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

In general, obviously, you're right. But there's nothing to say that America can't produce a grass horse who could compete with the euros. If somehow Curlin ended up being just as good on grass as he is on dirt he could probably compete. Personally, I think Barbaro could've won some big European turf races.

there have been many horses over the years that were bred here, and lit the place on fire running on turf overseas. we can produce them, we just don't know what to do with them after, other than sell them to foreign interests who know what they're looking for!

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

I find it hard to believe that Curlin will be as good on turf as he is on dirt, and I'm as big of a Smart Strike on the turf fan as anyone. He's been trained his entire life to run on one surface, and how many American horses do we see running 115+ Beyers on the grass? It'll take at least that to compete with the Europeans on grass. He could be a very good turf horse and still be shy of what it would take to be competitive in a race like the Arc.

What does the 115 Beyer have to do with it? Beyers are lower on turf (and less relevant) and they don't make beyers for euro races so I have no idea what those horses are running. I also doubt Curlin will be as good on dirt, but I'm not going to rule out the possibility of it happening because it would add some more excitement to a very dull year.

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by Scurlogue Champ

If Barbaro could've, then Big Brown surely can. Maybe they should point him for the Arc.

I mean, he won his maiden on grass by a pole beating a bunch of shitboxes.

Barbaro's turf races were against shitty competition, and people act like he could have won the Epsom Derby off of the Delaware Futurity.

Barbaro was a VERY good turf horse. I think they should put Big Brown back on the turf - easier to keep him sound that way and he's already proven himself on the dirt enough stud-wise.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i am in no way suggesting a race on turf would raise his fee, that's been my point all along--i think he's reaches his ceiling stud-fee wise.i agree he has nothing more to show on dirt. as for santa anita, i'll be surprised if he shows, since he's never run on awt to my knowledge.

I was just defending the position someone took that Curlin, as far as his position amongst racehorses all-time is concerned, would achieve a higher reputation if he were to run on grass and be successful at the top level.

From your reply to that post, you seemed to assume that the point of running on grass was to increase his stud value, but that wasn't what was being said by the other poster. I brought up Secretariat as an example of a dirt horse switching to the turf in a sporting move.

One could also mention Buckpasser, who I think was planning for a tilt at the Arc in France at 4 and was run in the Tidal or Bowling Green at Belmont to get a feel for turf. Because of some shoeing complications, he didn't handle it particularly well, and finished 3rd, ending his international travel plans. Unfortunately, it also ended a 15-race win streak, which would have tied him with Citation well before Cigar did with that cheesy manufactured race at Arlington.

Hopefully, Jess Jackson ups the ante of his sportsmanship by moving this horse to grass as opposed to just trying to break the pointless all-time money record or sending Curlin to Japan for the Japan Cup Dirt to face another group of no-hopers as he did in Dubai...

[jcs11204]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

Barbaro was a VERY good turf horse. I think they should put Big Brown back on the turf - easier to keep him sound that way and he's already proven himself on the dirt enough stud-wise.

big brown is a decent horse in a horrible crop... last year hes not even top 5.

[jcs11204]

this year he almost wins the triple crown.

[Scurlogue Champ]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I was just defending the position someone took that Curlin, as far as his position amongst racehorses all-time is concerned, would achieve a higher reputation if he were to run on grass and be successful at the top level.

From your reply to that post, you seemed to assume that the point of running on grass was to increase his stud value, but that wasn't what was being said by the other poster. I brought up Secretariat as an example of a dirt horse switching to the turf in a sporting move.

One could also mention Buckpasser, who I think was planning for a tilt at the Arc in France at 4 and was run in the Tidal or Bowling Green at Belmont to get a feel for turf. Because of some shoeing complications, he didn't handle it particularly well, and finished 3rd, ending his international travel plans. Unfortunately, it also ended a 15-race win streak, which would have tied him with Citation well before Cigar did with that cheesy manufactured race at Arlington.

Hopefully, Jess Jackson ups the ante of his sportsmanship by moving this horse to grass as opposed to just trying to break the pointless all-time money record or sending Curlin to Japan for the Japan Cup Dirt to face another group of no-hopers as he did in Dubai...

Japan Cup Dirt is no joke. Curlin might be up against it there as well.

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by jcs11204

big brown is a decent horse in a horrible crop... last year hes not even top 5.

almost no argument here . . . but I'd probably put him 3 or 4. . .

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Scurlogue Champ

Our top class grass horses are inferior to top class European horses on the turf. Not even a contest.

That's like saying our sprinters in the Olympics aren't superior to the Polish 100 meter runners.

Different ballgame

Since the majority of our important racing has been on dirt and the euros almost never beat us there couldnt you say that they are inferior to us? As a matter of fact we beat them a hell of a lot more on the turf than they beat us on the dirt. I have seen lots of superior euros come here and lose. I have also seen lots of mediocre euros come here and improve, often bleeders due to lasix use. Are they superior also? We ran 4 BC races on the turf last year in soggy conditions that should have favored the euros yet they won zero. Of the last 13 BC turf races they have won 4, hardly dominant. I remember a horse named Var who was just a horse over here, was sent to France and became the top rated sprinter in Europe. Turf horses in this country are still not really desired and are considered 2nd class citizens at least until they show they can be stakes horses. to be fair there are a whole lot more good American turf horses than there are european dirt horses. If dirt racing was eliminated in the US and the breeders and trainers concentrated strictly on turf racing, the euros would soon be second class. And that is actually a plausible situation.

[jcs11204]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

almost no argument here . . . but I'd probably put him 3 or 4. . .

3 ? omg hockey i like you and all but 3, wow even 4 ?

rags to riches....curlin... street sense.... hard spun

i could argue tiago... lears princess and lady joanee and grasshopper.... as 3 yr olds.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

We ran 4 BC races on the turf last year in soggy conditions that should have favored the euros yet they won zero.

The Filly and Mare Turf winner was imported and made her American debut at Belmont Spring last year.

Our turf horses are lucky to finish 9th with a perfect trip when they go long in Dubai each year.

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by jcs11204

3 ? omg hockey i like you and all but 3, wow even 4 ?

rags to riches - no....curlin yes... street sense I never liked him but yes.... hard spun maybe

i could argue tiago no way... lears princess is this a joke? and lady joanee seriously? and grasshopper please stop.... as 3 yr olds.

...

[Scurlogue Champ]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Since the majority of our important racing has been on dirt and the euros almost never beat us there couldnt you say that they are inferior to us? As a matter of fact we beat them a hell of a lot more on the turf than they beat us on the dirt. I have seen lots of superior euros come here and lose. I have also seen lots of mediocre euros come here and improve, often bleeders due to lasix use. Are they superior also? We ran 4 BC races on the turf last year in soggy conditions that should have favored the euros yet they won zero. Of the last 13 BC turf races they have won 4, hardly dominant. I remember a horse named Var who was just a horse over here, was sent to France and became the top rated sprinter in Europe. Turf horses in this country are still not really desired and are considered 2nd class citizens at least until they show they can be stakes horses. to be fair there are a whole lot more good American turf horses than there are european dirt horses. If dirt racing was eliminated in the US and the breeders and trainers concentrated strictly on turf racing, the euros would soon be second class. And that is actually a plausible situation.

I can't argue with your points here, especially the last sentence.

But I must stick to my guns in saying that their top class on turf are superior to our top class on turf. I know the statistics from the Breeders' Cup, and last year's results were baffling to me.

I think a good example is Powerscourt coming over and making Kitten's Joy look like a crow in the Arlington Million. That was a horse that was third string for Coolmore, and absolutely stroked that race two years in a row.

On certain days, we can beat them on our home turf. But overall, I am strongly convinced that they are much better than our bunch.

[Scurlogue Champ]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

The Filly and Mare Turf winner was imported and made her American debut at Belmont Spring last year.

Our turf horses are lucky to finish 9th with a perfect trip when they go long in Dubai each year.

She was fairly common over in France... Not terrible, but not clashing heads with the best.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

The Filly and Mare Turf winner was imported and made her American debut at Belmont Spring last year.

Our turf horses are lucky to finish 9th with a perfect trip when they go long in Dubai each year.

And our horses rarely lose the dirt races there. There are different types of racing and to say our horses are inferior based upon distance turf races is wrong.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

They are vastly superior on dirt - that seems as obvious as them being vastly inferior going long on the turf.