Just for a change of pace

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Exactly. The fact that they had talked about their story alone puts us way down the chain of fear of Intellegence services. Think anyone talks after the Moussad or KGB releases them? Or I should say survives afterwards?

I know that bad things occur in the world. Condoning or approving them doesnt change the fact that they happen and in many cases need to happen. Think the three pirates killed would have surrendered willingly if they thought they would have been treated "fairly"? So killing them to save a life is less of a n issue than sleep deprivation of a terror suspect that may be withholding info on a imminent plot? Who gets to choose?

Using the KGB or Moussad as examples to support the righteousness of our intelligence efforts is akin to me bringing up Imelda Marcos to prove that i don't own too many pairs of shoes.

Depriving people of liberty to protect liberty never made much sense to me.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Didnt say to release all the prisoners. I said that they deserve trials and representation. The ones that can't be rightfully condemned should be released.

Obama has been in office about 3 months. Action on this front could still be forthcoming. Seems like the man has a lot on his plate right now.

Actually action to the contrary has been pursued by his Justice dept

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124027091370936935.html


And the people who want them released have yet to address the issue of where to release them since the vast majority are not welcome back in their own countries?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Did you not post and where was your name brought up?

Do you really think that those 10 techniques are comparable to what happened in Russia (and most likely still is?)

I made one post in this thread noting how those techniques are like the old KGB, as Solzhenitsyn wrote in Gulag (and btw as Alex Dolgun, an American embassy employee who was kidnapped off the street in Russia by the KGB during his lunch hour, and was imprisoned, wrote also), so yeah, I do really think that those 10 techniques are comparable to what happened in Russia - because, well, they are.

I suppose that you and Brian are more qualified than the Justice dept to determine whether or not the law was properly applied.

I have to say that the new KGB must be more effective because they just up and kill people in broad daylight now. Yeah I'm sure that they were writing memos to the Politoboro asking permission to use interrogation methods in Siberia. What kind of dreamland do you guys live in?

It's nice that you just make broad assumptions about what I think, especially when I'm not posting about the subject. Saves me the trouble of having to actually participate

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Using the KGB or Moussad as examples to support the righteousness of our intelligence efforts is akin to me bringing up Imelda Marcos to prove that i don't own too many pairs of shoes.

Depriving people of liberty to protect liberty never made much sense to me.

No it is pointing out the hypocrisy of those who wish our services to operate in the publics view and avoid condemnation from foreign countries when similar agencies of other countries do neither. Holding ourselves to a "higher" standard will also make the CIA a less effective organization.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

I made one post in this thread noting how those techniques are like the old KGB, as Solzhenitsyn wrote in Gulag (and btw as Alex Dolgun, an American embassy employee who was kidnapped off the street in Russia by the KGB during his lunch hour, and was imprisoned, wrote also), so yeah, I do really think that those 10 techniques are comparable to what happened in Russia - because, well, they are.





It's nice that you just make broad assumptions about what I think, especially when I'm not posting about the subject. Saves me the trouble of having to actually participate

I'm sure all the prisoners that were executed (or simply disappeared) would testify that their interrogation techniques were a little more drastic than sleep deprivation. But hey Siberia is a convenient place to send prisoners.

When you post, the general assumption is that you are participating in the thread and from your answers it seems fairly clear what you are thinking.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Actually action to the contrary has been pursued by his Justice dept

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124027091370936935.html


And the people who want them released have yet to address the issue of where to release them since the vast majority are not welcome back in their own countries?

Actually, Obama's actions are prudent in this regard. Surely 90 days isnt enough time to institute a policy on such an important matter. He was better to stick to the current gameplan before making any changes in matters of national security.

Who said anything about wanting everyone released? And how do you know that "the vast majority are not welcome back in their own countries"?

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

No it is pointing out the hypocrisy of those who wish our services to operate in the publics view and avoid condemnation from foreign countries when similar agencies of other countries do neither. Holding ourselves to a "higher" standard will also make the CIA a less effective organization.

If our military were less concerned about civillian casualties, it would be much more effective. That fact that we hold ourselves to a higher standard is expected in that regard...No? Why should intelligence be any difference especially with the money and technology our agency (s) have at their disposal.

It isnt condemnation from other countries that i worry about but rather the hypocrisy within our own actions. We use our military and our agencies to spread and protect freedom while at the same time taking it away without just cause. That doesnt make sense.

[Riot]

I'm sure all the prisoners that were executed (or simply disappeared) would testify that their interrogation techniques were a little more drastic than sleep deprivation. But hey Siberia is a convenient place to send prisoners.

Sleep deprivation impressed me as a big deal technique when described by the two authors I mentioned (because it impressed them as such).

When you post, the general assumption is that you are participating in the thread and from your answers it seems fairly clear what you are thinking.

"Your answers"? Plural? I made one post. Seven words. I commented on the types of procedures on the US list: "I'll bet someone read The Gulag Archipelago".

You apparently are hearing other answers from me in your imagination.

But as I said, your assumptions about what I am thinking, on subjects I haven't addressed, saves me the trouble of actually having to participate in this thread.

BTW - what am I thinking now?

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

That is a ridiculous argument. We dont need to know because we cant possibly understand it. How exactly did we hold the German and Japanese people responsible for their leaders actions? Rebuild their countries and give them lots of money? Please punish me....

Fried the Japanese Civilians with the A bomb, and (as a people that didn't question their leaders) they all deserved it. Carpet bombed Dresden. Believe me, they thought they didn't need to know exactly what their leaders were doing. They went along with their leaders (just being loyal etc.) We could easily have a city here get hit by atleast a dirty bomb, because people think we tortured (and sadly we don't know exactly what our leaders had done down there.)

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

hes just phucked..wrong place at the wrong time..many in our own jails suffer the same fate..

LOL...SOUNDS RUSSIAN.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Like I said before, what happens to these individuals should be carried out under whatever cloak of darkness the govt decides just like the other countries of the world.

We don't make that much "stuff" anymore. We better be considered a "just" sanctuary, and it better be stable. What you're describing is a pretty slippery slope. You don't have a problem with either

1)no trials

or

2)torture (like this waterboarding surely is.)

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Just to understand. You feel that is lawful and just for a goverment to go on foreign soil (war zone or not), kidnap a citizen of that foreign country, torture them and hold them captive for years...on grounds of suspicion.

Does that sum it up?

nominated for dumbest post of the year

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

nominated for dumbest post of the year

:{>

Why my love?

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Riot

Sleep deprivation impressed me as a big deal technique when described by the two authors I mentioned (because it impressed them as such).

?

you really think that depriving terrorists of sleep to extract information out of them is a big deal and a bad thing?

[dalakhani]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://asiapacific.amnesty.org/pages...obay-cases-eng

I know...a bunch of leftists. They are lying. The US doesnt kidnap anyone without due process and without just cause.

Do I lose my nomination for post of the year dear?

ive missed you antitrust!

Kisses. I will check back later today.

Chuck, i know you missed me in this section.

[dellinger63]

Didn't this same amnesty group criticize Britain for a human rights report condemning Iraq and Sadam saying it was a propaganda tool used to go to war or was I dreaming that?

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

:{>

Why my love?

Hi Dala!!


I just wanted to get your attention!!

but I think Dells responce was good enough.

"Kidnap? that's kind of funny. Maybe you think we should be on trial then? How do you feel about killing them while in the war zone? Disarm the military and give them tasers? Maybe just throw wads of money at them and run away."

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Actually, Obama's actions are prudent in this regard. Surely 90 days isnt enough time to institute a policy on such an important matter. He was better to stick to the current gameplan before making any changes in matters of national security.

Who said anything about wanting everyone released? And how do you know that "the vast majority are not welcome back in their own countries"?

whether they are prudent or not the fact is that he has discovered that his rabble as a candidate and th reality of the situation are two different things. They are not doing what they said they would which is a good thing.

It has been written many places that we cant send the majority of the prisoners back to their countries because they either arent welcome or will not be safe from their own govts.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

Fried the Japanese Civilians with the A bomb, and (as a people that didn't question their leaders) they all deserved it. Carpet bombed Dresden. Believe me, they thought they didn't need to know exactly what their leaders were doing. They went along with their leaders (just being loyal etc.) We could easily have a city here get hit by atleast a dirty bomb, because people think we tortured (and sadly we don't know exactly what our leaders had done down there.)

I know it is you but do you really think that if terrorists were capable of using a dirty bomb against us that they wouldnt if we treated their prisoners in a better manner?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

If our military were less concerned about civillian casualties, it would be much more effective. That fact that we hold ourselves to a higher standard is expected in that regard...No? Why should intelligence be any difference especially with the money and technology our agency (s) have at their disposal.

It isnt condemnation from other countries that i worry about but rather the hypocrisy within our own actions. We use our military and our agencies to spread and protect freedom while at the same time taking it away without just cause. That doesnt make sense.

Greater good. No policy can make everyone happy or cover every circumstance. Innocent people are in jail right now. Doesn't mean we should scrap the legal system.