Dutrow running one off 2 days rest

[sumitas]

Originally Posted by Linny

I have no idea if the horse in question broke down because of the short rest or not. Certainly he wouldn't have done so in his stall, but that means nothing.
He probably would be alive now had he not raced but was he going to break next time anyhow? Can a potentially fatal "pending injury" be fixed with 2 weeks off? Based on the worktab, he was trying to get the horse claimed and kick the broken can down the lane to the next unsuspecting trainer. Now, I agree that that's neither "nice" nor entirely humane but Rick isn't the only one guilty of such stuff. It happens all the time and is done by elite barns as well as modest claiming operations.

This type of activity needs to be eliminated from racing. It is a recipe for breakdowns and cannot be accepted by what I hope will be a new national racing body that will enforce rules for honesty and health.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Linny

I have no idea if the horse in question broke down because of the short rest or not. Certainly he wouldn't have done so in his stall, but that means nothing.
He probably would be alive now had he not raced but was he going to break next time anyhow? Can a potentially fatal "pending injury" be fixed with 2 weeks off? Based on the worktab, he was trying to get the horse claimed and kick the broken can down the lane to the next unsuspecting trainer. Now, I agree that that's neither "nice" nor entirely humane but Rick isn't the only one guilty of such stuff. It happens all the time and is done by elite barns as well as modest claiming operations.

running back two days later does not happen all the time. in my database of 65,000 starters, it happened 5 times.

[TheSpyder]

I was hopeing you would weight in Jim. Any idea how those 5 did?

Spyder

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

running back two days later does not happen all the time. in my database of 65,000 starters, it happened 5 times.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by TheSpyder

I was hopeing you would weight in Jim. Any idea how those 5 did?

Spyder

one second, one third, three out of the money.

three came from Leo O'Brien, one from Dutrow and one from Contessa.

Leo O'Brien actually sent out horses after two days rest on consecutive days last winter. so in four days he got 4 starts from two horses.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

one second, one third, three out of the money.

three came from Leo O'Brien, one from Dutrow and one from Contessa.

Leo O'Brien actually sent out horses after two days rest on consecutive days last winter. so in four days he got 4 starts from two horses.

What were the conditions, though?

Leo O'Brien and Allen Jerkens have been known to sprint a horse (assumingly as a glorified workout) in anticipation of a route race a couple of days later (Fourstars Allstar was a good example, I think he ran in the Laurel Dash and showed up a couple of days later in the International).

Its one thing to run a horse on short rest when the initial start could, at least on paper, be labeled as a "tune-up" and a whole other thing if a horse is meant to be all out in both races (which often times is not good for business).

[TheSpyder]

Good points and thanks Jim.

Spyd

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

What were the conditions, though?

Leo O'Brien and Allen Jerkens have been known to sprint a horse (assumingly as a glorified workout) in anticipation of a route race a couple of days later (Fourstars Allstar was a good example, I think he ran in the Laurel Dash and showed up a couple of days later in the International).

Its one thing to run a horse on short rest when the initial start could, at least on paper, be labeled as a "tune-up" and a whole other thing if a horse is meant to be all out in both races (which often times is not good for business).

well i don't know if you would call these tune-ups or what.

My Guarini, trained by O'brien
Jan 9th, debuts MSW at Aqu, finishes last by 44 lengths
Jan 11, MCL15000 at Aqu, finishes last by 36
never seen again

Maps Hope, trained by O'brien
Jan 10th, MDN15000 at Aqu, finishes 3rd by three, best finish for Leo
Jan 12th, MSW at Aqu, finishes 5th by 4,
horse then sent to Duggan and actually just broke maiden on June 18th.

Eclectic, trained by Dutrow
mar 27th, str ALW at Aqu, airs by 5 lengths over a 4 horse field.
Mar 29th, ALW at Aqu, 3rd by 1 1/2
has raced a couple times since

Ease My Mind,
Apr 3rd, CLM 35K at Aqu, finishes 8th by 13, ran for Timothy Hills but claimed by Contessa for Winning Move.
Apr 5th, ALW1 at Aqu, finishes 6th by 8 lens.
raced again June 18th, Clm 12.5K at DEL finishes second

Hoist The Gala, trained by Leo
May 15th, Mdn 35K at Bel, finishes 4th by 5
May 17th, MSW BEL, finishes 2 by 1/4
just raced again last week finishing 5th, still a maiden

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I think what Linny was referring to was the trainer trying to get the horse claimed and not so much the 2 days. At least that is how I read it.

you could be right, and I wasn't sure either. the claiming issue was sort of added on to the main topic about quick comebacks.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

I think I could get a deal on Stormy Atlantic at 25 to 30k its a nice match.. Will see

Great selection. She matches well with him and he can help her physically especially behind.

[sumitas]

How about Comeonmom.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by sumitas

How about Comeonmom.

What about him?

[Linny]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

running back two days later does not happen all the time. in my database of 65,000 starters, it happened 5 times.

What I meant is that horses who have known injuries or are "ticking time bombs" are run all the time, when rest is warranted. I don't know anything about the horse in question but he looked like one that they knew had a serious issue and they ran this risk of several quick works and a couple of closely spaced races to give the claiming trainers the idea that he was a sound/fit horse, one ripe for claiming.
The other points were that this is not something that only done by "claiming trainers" and that even if this Dutrow horse had been give (say) 2 weeks rest he probably still would have broken down. It's pretty likely that he had something about to blow.

[Echo Farm]

This is heresay, and from the FOB forum, so take it with a whole shaker of salt.

Can anyone verify it?

I just talked wit the NJ State Vet - it was determined on Tuesday that Unrequited had a fractured pelvis and he was euthanized.. The vet was aware that the horse had just run the friday before at Belmont Park but said that unfortunately there were no state rules that prohibited that.. these were Unrequited's first races after a one year lay off..

http://forums.prospero.com/alexbrown...s?msg=25843.49

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by Echo Farm

This is heresay, and from the FOB forum, so take it with a whole shaker of salt.

Can anyone verify it?



http://forums.prospero.com/alexbrown...s?msg=25843.49

I have no first hand information about whether the horse was euthanized but these were not his first two races of the year. He had been away about a year, but before these races, he ran in late May/early June at Belmont and/or Monmouth.

[Linny]

The problem with the FOB board is that while there are alot of orsemen on there, very few have ever read the DRF and couldn't tell as past performance from a pasta primavera. Alot are fans but they are really not well informed about the inside working of the game.
With all due respect to the horsemen here on DT, many don't nreally know that much about handicapping and don't read the PP's regularly.

[parsixfarms]

Confirmation that the horse was euthanzized: http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/du...se-euthanized/

[Echo Farm]

Originally Posted by Linny

The problem with the FOB board is that while there are alot of orsemen on there, very few have ever read the DRF and couldn't tell as past performance from a pasta primavera..

you say it well........................

[TheSpyder]

Maybe he was talking about Iwoman who just won at Arlington?

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

What about him?

[dalakhani]

I was in Ascot in 2006 and if im not mistaken, they ran Takeover Target on Tuesday and turned around and ran him again on saturday.

I think each horse is different. I dont see why it is such an outrage to have a horse run back if he comes out of a race fine and he is ready to go.

Obviously, Dutrow's wasnt...so im not trying to justify anything. My point is, that we cant blame what happened on the fact that it was two days. We should blame it on the fact that that particular horse wasnt ready.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

I was in Ascot in 2006 and if im not mistaken, they ran Takeover Target on Tuesday and turned around and ran him again on saturday.

I think each horse is different. I dont see why it is such an outrage to have a horse run back if he comes out of a race fine and he is ready to go.

Obviously, Dutrow's wasnt...so im not trying to justify anything. My point is, that we cant blame what happened on the fact that it was two days. We should blame it on the fact that that particular horse wasnt ready.

we're talking about a two day turnaround with cheap horses, and you give an example of a top horse that ran back in four days.

how do you know for sure when the horse is ready to go? what is the limit? can they come back the next day? later in the same card? I'm sure some horses could do it, the question is aren't you inviting trouble and exposing them to increased risk at some point?