Change of Plans for Lava Man

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Honu!! How was Hawaii?
To be honest I'm not real sure who is coming from Europe and what the pace implications will be from those who do come. I'm not sure if Showing Up is planning on running in that race either, but he would have tactical speed to at least insure he doesnt get away in 1:15 again.
As far as Americans pointing to it, I only know of Cacique and English Channel and I think EC has more speed than he showed last time but that the post postition caused them to try and rate.
Not sure how the pace will unfold at this point.
Is the Tin Man gonna be in the Hirsch this weekend?

Come-from-behinders can't use a slow pace as an excuse unless they are gaining ground in the stretch. If they are losing ground in the stretch, they obviously had no excuse. Cacique and EC were both losing ground in the stretch in the Million.

With regard to the BC Turf, the race is 1 1/2 miles. I don't know if The Tin Man is as good at that distance. I certainly don't expect a fast pace in the BC Turf. I would expect a fairly slow pace. I wouldn't be shocked if they run the half-mile in :49 or :50.

Originally Posted by Honu

Hawaii was awesome!!!!!!! I got to see some old friends and boogie boarded on my favorite beaches, alltho there wasnt much breaking except in town I cought some wee waves and had fun anyway. Snorkled with some "Honu's" ( about 5 of them the first day) and saw some eel's and a black Grouper that was about 5 feet long. Ill send you some pics( if you want ) but it really doesnt capture the beauty of the island but youll get the idea.
TTM is going to run this weekend , I worked him on the grass the other day and I really feel he is doing better than ever , he is an amazing horse to be around. If you watched him gallop on the dirt youd be like who is that claimer but when he gets on the grass he is a whole diffirent animal.

Send the pics! Never seen hawaii.
I figured this had to be the race he was prepping in. Any idea who the competition is? I'm gonna go look up the nominations now.

[Gander]

Wow, thanks for the update Honu. Best of luck this weekend. I'll be watching and rooting.

To answer your question Mike, yes I do feel the Tin Man can win the BC. I have a gut feeling he will not be on the lead in the race, rather sit 2nd or 3rd and win rating. Regarding a head to head with Cacique, we'll have to work out some kind of odds on that. I wouldnt take that bet straight up when I can get it at Pinnacle for a much nicer payoff. Actually, I'd rather just bet him to win, because if he doesnt win, it will probably be Cacique who beats him.

Not sure why you would propose the Tin Man would run in both the Hirsch and the Oct 7th race, and then the BC? 3 grade 1's in a matter of 8 weeks?
That would be asking a lot and normally isnt how Mandella works.

Honu you can get on your best and get ready to pose.
I just pulled the nominations and pp's for the nominees. With lava Man not running, that leaves you and 7 hopelessly overmatched rivals. Not a bonafide graded stakes horse among them. You will be 1-5 in there.

Originally Posted by Gander

Wow, thanks for the update Honu. Best of luck this weekend. I'll be watching and rooting.

To answer your question Mike, yes I do feel the Tin Man can win the BC. I have a gut feeling he will not be on the lead in the race, rather sit 2nd or 3rd and win rating. Regarding a head to head with Cacique, we'll have to work out some kind of odds on that. I wouldnt take that bet straight up when I can get it at Pinnacle for a much nicer payoff. Actually, I'd rather just bet him to win, because if he doesnt win, it will probably be Cacique who beats him.

Not sure why you would propose the Tin Man would run in both the Hirsch and the Oct 7th race, and then the BC? 3 grade 1's in a matter of 8 weeks?
That would be asking a lot and normally isnt how Mandella works.

Huh?
Tim, I mean that EC would run in the Oct 7th race and the Cup, I wasnt talking about the Tin Man. And why would EC ship out there to run in race worth less money and about 1/10th the prestige? It would make zero sense.

[blackthroatedwind]

I don't understand how anybody can honestly consider ANY of the current US based horses in the BC Turf assuming any of the anticipated Euros show up. The likes of Hurricane Run are significantly better than these horses. Don't get me wrong, the Tin Man is an admirable horse, especially considering his age, but any neutral observer ( I didn't bet the race and was glad to see both Cacique and English Channel bite the dust ) knows that he won because he was allowed to walk on the lead. Cacique and English Channel are also both very nice horses, but they have all been successful this year against modest competition in races where they too got good setups. Showing Up is another very nice horse, and his Secretariat win was terrific, but he failed to either rate successfully or negotiate the added distance in the Man O' War. Considering the utter domination incurred upon our horses by the even modest looking Euro group that arrived last year I fail to see how anybody can be seriously entertaining notions of any of these horses winning the BC Turf. Obviously we have to wait and see who actually shows up but with the Arc five weeks before this years BC, as opposed to THREE weeks last year, I anticipate our horses will once again be severely up against it.

Hardly taking a stand but I am surprised at the vehemnace with which people are defending a fairly lackluster bunch.

[Gander]

Yup, I misunderstood your post, sorry. I have no idea why Todd would ship his horse out there, that was news to me. Somebody mentioned on here that was the story and I did not think it could possibly be true.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by Honu

Hawaii was awesome!!!!!!! I got to see some old friends and boogie boarded on my favorite beaches, alltho there wasnt much breaking except in town I cought some wee waves and had fun anyway. Snorkled with some "Honu's" ( about 5 of them the first day) and saw some eel's and a black Grouper that was about 5 feet long. Ill send you some pics( if you want ) but it really doesnt capture the beauty of the island but youll get the idea.
TTM is going to run this weekend , I worked him on the grass the other day and I really feel he is doing better than ever , he is an amazing horse to be around. If you watched him gallop on the dirt youd be like who is that claimer but when he gets on the grass he is a whole diffirent animal.

Honu, the Big Island is about my favorite place in the world. I spend 3-5 weeks there most summers. Love snorkeling at Two-steps and Captain Cooks. Even Kahalu'u is fun for a quick late afternoon snorkel. And body-surfing at Hapuna. Love the plumeria and the geckos and all that black lava rock. mmmmmmm....

I'm staring at a big honu pic I took a couple of years ago and blew up into a poster for the wall above my desk.

How's Kilauea behaving?

--Dunbar

[Rupert Pupkin]

Oracle, I am still curious to hear your explanation as to why Cacique and EC were losing ground in the stretch in the Million.

As I said before, I will use a slow pace as an excuse for come-from-behinders if they are at least closing some ground in the stretch. But if they are losing ground in the stretch, there is no way to use the pace as an excuse for their loss.

[Honu]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

Honu, the Big Island is about my favorite place in the world. I spend 3-5 weeks there most summers. Love snorkeling at Two-steps and Captain Cooks. Even Kahalu'u is fun for a quick late afternoon snorkel. And body-surfing at Hapuna. Love the plumeria and the geckos and all that black lava rock. mmmmmmm....

I'm staring at a big honu pic I took a couple of years ago and blew up into a poster for the wall above my desk.

How's Kilauea behaving?

--Dunbar

Madame Pele is still showing her stuff , but most you have to see from a boat.
Hey did you know they paved the road to Kua Bay , it used to be 4wd only , but now it has bathrooms and everything. I went out to Hapuna hopin to catch some waves but it was pretty flat , thats where I saw the 5 ft Grouper, out along the south cliff, goin towards beach 68. The first day I went to Kona Coast state park and there wasnt one person there for about 2 hours , it was so awesome felt like I was in my own private paradise.
Talking about 2 steps, ive snorkled there and well its easier gettin in than out , so I waited for a wave to coast in on , got up on the step real nice and sat on a sea urchin that was in a puka, to say the least you know who your friends are at that point as nobody was willing to remedy the situation ( you know what i mean ) lol.

[Gander]

Cacique and English Channel are also both very nice horses, but they have all been successful this year against modest competition in races where they too got good setups.

Thanks Andy. Finally somebody besides myself calls a spade a spade. You cant have it both ways, sure the Tin Man got creampuff fractions, but thats horse racing. English Channel got the dreamiest trips possible in both his grade 1 wins and so too did Cacique in his.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by Honu

Madame Pele is still showing her stuff , but most you have to see from a boat.
Hey did you know they paved the road to Kua Bay , it used to be 4wd only , but now it has bathrooms and everything. I went out to Hapuna hopin to catch some waves but it was pretty flat , thats where I saw the 5 ft Grouper, out along the south cliff, goin towards beach 68. The first day I went to Kona Coast state park and there wasnt one person there for about 2 hours , it was so awesome felt like I was in my own private paradise.
Talking about 2 steps, ive snorkled there and well its easier gettin in than out , so I waited for a wave to coast in on , got up on the step real nice and sat on a sea urchin that was in a puka, to say the least you know who your friends are at that point as nobody was willing to remedy the situation ( you know what i mean ) lol.

Good to here that Pele is still going strong. Some years we were able to walk up to within a foot of the active lava ooze. Carefully, of course!

Where's Kona Coast state park? That must have been wonderful. I've been to a few small beaches near Keahou that we had to ourselves.

That's cool about the grouper. I've never seen one that big. At Hapuna I've only snorkeled those rocks right in the middle. Sounds like I should try the cliffs. (That's at the other end away from the resort, right?)

That's sorta funny about the sea urchin at 2-steps, though I'm sure you didn't think so at the time. Those ledges are full of urchins, but I always assumed the holes were deep enough to protect me from the urchins. I know I've sat on them dozens of times without feeling anything. Put my hands on those ledges, too. You must have been a more tempting target than I am. Isn't that a fantastic snorkel spot, though? And lots of times you get to see a school of spinner dolphin come in toward sunset. Driving out the long way, you pass an honor-system lei stand. A must stop for us.

Sigh...

--Dunbar

[Honu]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

Good to here that Pele is still going strong. Some years we were able to walk up to within a foot of the active lava ooze. Carefully, of course!

Where's Kona Coast state park? That must have been wonderful. I've been to a few small beaches near Keahou that we had to ourselves.

That's cool about the grouper. I've never seen one that big. At Hapuna I've only snorkeled those rocks right in the middle. Sounds like I should try the cliffs. (That's at the other end away from the resort, right?)

That's sorta funny about the sea urchin at 2-steps, though I'm sure you didn't think so at the time. Those ledges are full of urchins, but I always assumed the holes were deep enough to protect me from the urchins. I know I've sat on them dozens of times without feeling anything. Put my hands on those ledges, too. You must have been a more tempting target than I am. Isn't that a fantastic snorkel spot, though? And lots of times you get to see a school of spinner dolphin come in toward sunset. Driving out the long way, you pass an honor-system lei stand. A must stop for us.

Sigh...

--Dunbar

The snorkle spot at Hapuna is , if you are looking at the ocean go to left and park yourself by the cliff in the shade, when you go in the water just follow the wall to the left ( south) and you will see some coral heads straight out . If you just follow the wall you will see all kinds of stuff, Ive actually swam for about 20 mins with a Honu along the wall . Kona Coast state park is just a few miles past the airport on the left hand side , you have to go out thru the lava field on a pretty bumpy road but I have driven rental cars down there so its not that bad . They filmed return to blue lagune there and its just a white sand cresent shaped beach with usually not to many people there. Alot of time the Honu's come in to eat the limu( sea weed ) off the rocks to the left Ive even had them eat it out of my hand before. If things go well Ill be back living there in a couple of years, my mom wants to buy me a house there ( i think she is just scared im going to die riding horses). Ive never felt so at home as I have when I lived in Hawaii, its the best life and the aloha spirit is truly alive on the Big Island.

[repent]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Repent,
Dunbat specializes inattempting to find fault with others while NEVER adding anything of even the most remote value to a thread or discussion.
Not one time has he ever written anything of vaule or interest.
The Tin man got very lucky and loose last time, it won't happen again. That you can bet on.

good to know.
as for the whole Tin Man thing-
look, I know everyone loves these old geldings and wants to think they get better with age.
but that Million race's fractions were ridiculous and its simply not going to happen in a race on BC day.
The Tin Man was allowed to set slow fraction in the 2002 BC Turf against a much weaker field, and did not get the job done.
good luck to anyone betting him this time around, b/c they are going to need it.


Repent

[repent]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

The Slow Man finished 4th in the 2002 BC Turf as the 2nd highest price in the 8 horse field?? I am not sure how that is considered failing miserably picking up a $135,000 check for his efforts. The Tin Man has won every race he has entered in the US this year and finished 2nd in Dubai. He is by all accounts better this year or at least winning at a very high percentage.

you dont?
purse money earned is not an exact representitive of how well a horse runs in a given race.
he set slow fractions against a weak running of the BCT and he LOST.
he did not look good in that race.

please review the charts of the race or just watch the tape.


now,
if you want to play him, put him in exotics, or include him on a pick 3,4, or 6 ticket,
then I am begging you to do so.
I want your freaking money.


Repent

[repent]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

repent, your opinion of Smarty Jones is pretty complicated. You write you are "very aware how fast he was", but you also write "he sucked".

Then again, your comments on The Tin Man didn't make much sense to me, either.

Have a few more rants. I think I'm done with this thread.

--Dunbar

yeah,
well life is complicated.
let me clear it up for you.

the tin man sucks,
you suck,
and yes, smarty jones sucks.


Repent

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by Honu

The snorkle spot at Hapuna is , if you are looking at the ocean go to left and park yourself by the cliff in the shade, when you go in the water just follow the wall to the left ( south) and you will see some coral heads straight out . If you just follow the wall you will see all kinds of stuff, Ive actually swam for about 20 mins with a Honu along the wall . Kona Coast state park is just a few miles past the airport on the left hand side , you have to go out thru the lava field on a pretty bumpy road but I have driven rental cars down there so its not that bad . They filmed return to blue lagune there and its just a white sand cresent shaped beach with usually not to many people there. Alot of time the Honu's come in to eat the limu( sea weed ) off the rocks to the left Ive even had them eat it out of my hand before. If things go well Ill be back living there in a couple of years, my mom wants to buy me a house there ( i think she is just scared im going to die riding horses). Ive never felt so at home as I have when I lived in Hawaii, its the best life and the aloha spirit is truly alive on the Big Island.

Mahalo for the info about Hapuna and the state park. I think I remember where the State Park is now. Didn't they put in a new ranger station there just a few years ago?

That's cool about feeding a honu by hand. Never tried that, but I've let geckos lick papaya off my fingers. Hey, they're reptiles, too! ;>) I love swimming with honu, trying to coordinate my arm motions with their flipper movements. They are so peaceful and graceful in the water. And then amazing when they drag themselves out of the water at Kahalu'u and rest on the sand for an hour or two.

Do you ever go up to the Mauna Kea observatory's Visitor Center? We usually do that on our way back from checking out the latest volcano action on the other side of the island. Driving the saddle road at dusk is always eerie, and rising above the clouds to the Visitor Center is gorgeous. Never been all the way to the top where the big telescopes are, though.

Agree completely about the aloha spirit. We seem to immediately shift into a different gear and attitude when we arrive at Kona-Kailua. Heck, the airport itself makes you smile. ("Hey, where are the walls?!")

Sun and breeze and water and wafts of plumeria at night. Life is so good there. Even the morays seem to smile.

--Dunbar

[Gander]

Hey Repent. Your beloved English Channel had a very cozy trip behind Cacique in the Manhattan on Belmont Stakes Day but could do no better than a close 4th, getting passed by 2 horses in the stretch that came from a zip code away. Because English Channel didnt go by Cacique, he must suck right? He also could do no better than 4th in the Arl Million losing ground in the stretch. He must really suck. Please explain how you put this horse on such a higher ground than the Tin Man.

Originally Posted by Gander

Hey Repent. Your beloved English Channel had a very cozy trip behind Cacique in the Manhattan on Belmont Stakes Day but could do no better than a close 4th, getting passed by 2 horses in the stretch that came from a zip code away. Because English Channel didnt go by Cacique, he must suck right? He also could do no better than 4th in the Arl Million losing ground in the stretch. He must really suck. Please explain how you put this horse on such a higher ground than the Tin Man.

Tim,
EC has won two grade one's this year. And you keep referring to losing ground in the stretch, yeah wide behind a 1:15, even little kids understand why noone will make up ground on that.
If you want Tim, name the amount, the two of em heads up I will take EC if they meet again.

[Gander]

It was actually Rupert who kept referring to losing ground in the stretch.
And if the price is right and money is put up front, I'll make a head to head matchup between those 2.