What is C BROWN UP TO?

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

Originally Posted by VOL JACK

Yeah Mike Maker is Steph Beattie of the KY circuit.
Whats the difference between him and Kiaran McL? Except that K Mc is much better with firsters and MM is better with Turf runners they are basically the same trainer..But you never hear anyone calling the very likable KMc a CHEAT.

Hooves, stick to making your random picks.

wow.. yes ive heard people say karien m is a cheat but.. maker was a low perc guy with ok to **** stock.. now hes gotten very good very fast and improving horses at a rate that is not normal.ill stay way from the picks..thanks

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by VOL JACK

Yeah Mike Maker is Steph Beattie of the KY circuit.
Whats the difference between him and Kiaran McL? Except that K Mc is much better with firsters and MM is better with Turf runners they are basically the same trainer..But you never hear anyone calling the very likable KMc a CHEAT.

Hooves, stick to making your random picks.

Thats just funny. I'd put hooves picks up against anyone on the internet let alone this site..

I wish I could find the longshots he does with my "random" picks.

[VOL JACK]

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

wow.. yes ive heard people say karien m is a cheat but.. maker was a low perc guy with ok to **** stock.. now hes gotten very good very fast and improving horses at a rate that is not normal.ill stay way from the picks..thanks

He started out with basically no clients, at least wealthy ones. Being he was the only Lukas assistant not to take stock from Wayne's clients.
His Stats have climbed staeadily every year since he went out on his own in 2002. Topping off last year at 30%.
I think its wrong to assume that every trainer that hits at 20% and up are cheaters....Just as it's wrong to assume that every trainer that wins at 10% and less are on the straight and narrow.

Today when the claiming crown PP's come out. Take a look at Maker's runners, especially Furthest Land. I guess stretching out a son of smart Strike thats out of a Rahy mare on the turf is cheating. Clement was obviously convinced he was a turf Sprinter.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Maker and McLaughlin are like the M & M's of shady trainers east of California.

They stack up pretty good against Mullins and Mitchell.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Maker and McLaughlin are like the M & M's of shady trainers east of California.

They stack up pretty good against Mullins and Mitchell.

I would not put Maker and McL in the same sentence. I have never thought Kiaran's horses jump up in crazy ways. He gets legit stock.

Originally Posted by randallscott35

I would not put Maker and McL in the same sentence. I have never thought Kiaran's horses jump up in crazy ways. He gets legit stock.

I concur. I have solid info that he possesses one of the top four-leaf clover collections in the world.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

This is a myth. If it were so then wouldn't it be fairly easy to catch guys giving these drugs? The detention barns really dont stop anything that is useful anyway. Vets just give the stuff that they would give with Lasix a little earlier and most of it is questionable in its effectivness anyway. The drugs of choice now are either given on a daily basis or are simply modified existing drugs that there are no tests for. The most effective drug of the last 20 years, EPO, is still being used in a modified form without markers. You dont need to give that anywhere near raceday.

They have caught guys the same day. Do you remember when they had PB under surveillance in New York and they caught him giving his horse a shot on race day?

The detention barn made it so that some guys couldn't cheat any more. There was the one big trainer who was winning in New York at about a 25% clip and after they initiated the detention barn his win percentage dropped down to about 5% and he movedd all his horses to Delaware.

I agree with you that there are obviously guys that are still cheating and there is stuff that does not need to be administered within a few hours of the race. But at least the detention barn eliminates alot of the conventional cheating that was going on. You can't milkshake a horse 2 hours before the race any more.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

They have caught guys the same day. Do you remember when they had PB under surveillance in New York and they caught him giving his horse a shot on race day?

The detention barn made it so that some guys couldn't cheat any more. There was the one big trainer who was winning in New York at about a 25% clip and after they initiated the detention barn his win percentage dropped down to about 5% and he movedd all his horses to Delaware.

I agree with you that there are obviously guys that are still cheating and there is stuff that does not need to be administered within a few hours of the race. But at least the detention barn eliminates alot of the conventional cheating that was going on. You can't milkshake a horse 2 hours before the race any more.

Since the perception is that there are lots of guys cheating, one guy who was caught 10 years ago doesnt make much of a stand. The detention barn was created so that NYRA can say it is doing something even if that something isnt not very effective. You used one example of a trainer that has left NY since the detention barn was started but he cant possibly be the only one that this has affected could it? Why hasn't it had any affect on any other of the suspicious guys?

The detention barn is a major negative if it is the primary source of a tracks efforts to curb illegal behavior because it is relatively ineffective overall and completely useless against other types like EPO or milkshaking. While NYRA is
to be commended for doing something it is simply the tip of the iceberg when trying to combat illegal behavior. What you have in theory eliminated are things that are simply given before a horse goes into the detention barn. Do you seriously think that research was done when it was determined that the best time to give Lasix is 4 hours out? It was total guesswork. Plenty of things that are given have just as much effectiveness given 6 or 8 hours out.

[VOL JACK]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

I would not put Maker and McL in the same sentence. I have never thought Kiaran's horses jump up in crazy ways. He gets legit stock.

Please...name some of these horses that Maker is magically moving up!!!

[MisterB]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Since the perception is that there are lots of guys cheating, one guy who was caught 10 years ago doesnt make much of a stand. The detention barn was created so that NYRA can say it is doing something even if that something isnt not very effective. You used one example of a trainer that has left NY since the detention barn was started but he cant possibly be the only one that this has affected could it? Why hasn't it had any affect on any other of the suspicious guys?

The detention barn is a major negative if it is the primary source of a tracks efforts to curb illegal behavior because it is relatively ineffective overall and completely useless against other types like EPO or milkshaking. While NYRA is
to be commended for doing something it is simply the tip of the iceberg when trying to combat illegal behavior. What you have in theory eliminated are things that are simply given before a horse goes into the detention barn. Do you seriously think that research was done when it was determined that the best time to give Lasix is 4 hours out? It was total guesswork. Plenty of things that are given have just as much effectiveness given 6 or 8 hours out.

Name names!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Stop please!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bobby Fischer]

It is possible if not easy to enhance a horse's performance with medication and not get caught. Money and power have been motive to cheat as long as they have existed.
To deny that cheating is occurring is not only naive, it doesn't help anything.

It's like when Barry Bonds when put on 30lbs of muscle in one offseason and anyone with a pulse on the sport could notice, but it took years for most to admit that it is obvious.

It doesn't help the horse to pretend like some of these guys aren't sociopaths who cheat as much as they can within cost and danger of being caught. They are.

Trainer Talent, heavier use oflegal/accepted Drugs, and Money/quality are often enough to move up a horse substantially in their own right.
Not everyone is using some horrible undetectable designer drug, or EPO or pain blocking substance like venom, I'll even guess "most of" move up trainers and move ups are not, but some certainly are.

[MisterB]

As usual, no facts, and arm chair losers.

What a bunch of idiots

[Bigsmc]

Originally Posted by MisterB

What a bunch of idiots

Name names.

[3kings]

Originally Posted by MisterB

As usual, no facts, and arm chair losers.

What a bunch of idiots

This was a fact filled worthwhile post as usual. Keep posting with such great insight.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by VOL JACK

Please...name some of these horses that Maker is magically moving up!!!

Originally Posted by Bigsmc

Name names.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Do you seriously think that research was done when it was determined that the best time to give Lasix is 4 hours out? It was total guesswork.

??? There's plenty of pharmacologic research about the best time to give lasix. It wasn't a guess, it's based upon furosemides' half-life.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Did you read her post or are you hitting the bottle tonight?

So you couldn't understand the point that the concept of many drugs constantly being newly created by cheating trainers (FatMan thinks so, too), keeping one step ahead of the testers, is mostly fan imagination, rather than reality.

Originally Posted by Riot

So you couldn't understand the point that the concept of many drugs constantly being newly created by cheating trainers (FatMan thinks so, too), keeping one step ahead of the testers, is mostly fan imagination, rather than reality.

Jesustapdancingchrist. So trainers are creating drugs now?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Jesustapdancingchrist. So trainers are creating drugs now?

Sure - using the amazing super-chemists all these trainers employ, working at the top secret laboratories.