Baffert, Point Given among Hall of Fame finalists - Page 4

The Indomitable DrugS · #61 02-25-2009, 07:16 PM

Here's the past performances for Sharp Cat (who isn't even nominated) before she suffered a career ending injury... note all the 1's on her form.

Note at the bottom that she was the 2/1 favorite in the Santa Anita Derby - she hooked Silver Charm through crazy fast fractions and softened him up for Free House.

She was scary good in those four races in '98 as a 4yo after leaving the Lukas barn.

Finished her career 15-for-22 with earnings over $2 million and was a multiple Grade 1 winner in each year that she raced. Took 7 Grade 1's overall. Never won an eclispe.

Pretty good pinhook as well ... just an 82K Nov weanling ... she went for 900K at Barretts March as a 2yo. Actually won a Grade 2 stake in a walkover .. not exactly the type of filly you wanted to hook on a wet track.

blackthroatedwind · #62 02-25-2009, 07:21 PM

How can Point Given belong in any Hall of Fame?

I suppose Bernardini, or Barbaro and Big Brown, are next. What a joke.

Danzig · #63 02-25-2009, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

How can Point Given belong in any Hall of Fame?

you don't think he should be there? wasn't he the first to win four million dollar races in a row? still the only one to do it too, isn't he? if i had to choose, i'd go with tiznow between the two tho.

blackthroatedwind · #64 02-25-2009, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danzig

you don't think he should be there? wasn't he the first to win four million dollar races in a row? still the only one to do it too, isn't he? if i had to choose, i'd go with tiznow between the two tho.

Oh, wow, he won four million dollar races?

He must be the best horsey ever.

He lost way too many races as a 2YO, whether he was best in them or not, and while he won some big races, and was a very good horse ( better, in fact, than the greatest horse ever, Big Brown ), he had an injury shortened career. He never faced olders.

Next.

The Indomitable DrugS · #65 02-25-2009, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

How can Point Given belong in any Hall of Fame?

I suppose Bernardini, or Barbaro and Big Brown, are next. What a joke.

Barbaro is a lock to get in.

philcski · #66 02-25-2009, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Here's the past performances for Sharp Cat (who isn't even nominated) before she suffered a career ending injury... note all the 1's on her form.

Note at the bottom that she was the 2/1 favorite in the Santa Anita Derby - she hooked Silver Charm through crazy fast fractions and softened him up for Free House.

She was scary good in those four races in '98 as a 4yo after leaving the Lukas barn.

Finished her career 15-for-22 with earnings over $2 million and was a multiple Grade 1 winner in each year that she raced. Took 7 Grade 1's overall. Never won an eclispe.

Pretty good pinhook as well ... just an 82K Nov weanling ... she went for 900K at Barretts March as a 2yo. Actually won a Grade 2 stake in a walkover .. not exactly the type of filly you wanted to hook on a wet track.

Yet another Lukas superstar filly who has been incomprehensibly bad as a broodmare.

VOL JACK · #67 02-25-2009, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Barbaro is a lock to get in.

Barbaro and Big Brown will both get in the Hall.
Bernadini will not but, he would have drilled them both.

The Indomitable DrugS · #68 02-25-2009, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philcski

Yet another Lukas superstar filly who has been incomprehensibly bad as a broodmare.

I think that's a myth.

philcski · #69 02-25-2009, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I think that's a myth.

Why don't you run the list?
I'd like to see it debunked, to be honest.

Danzig · #70 02-25-2009, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Oh, wow, he won four million dollar races?

He must be the best horsey ever.

He lost way too many races as a 2YO, whether he was best in them or not, and while he won some big races, and was a very good horse ( better, in fact, than the greatest horse ever, Big Brown ), he had an injury shortened career. He never faced olders.

Next.

yeah, that's true.
but i think we'll continue to see horses that probably don't belong in there-because what alternative is there, other than to see none inducted in future? i don't even get much excitement at the thought of tiznow going in-he had his moments, but he doesn't have an overwhelming career.
isn't that what they should have?

Danzig · #71 02-25-2009, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VOL JACK

Barbaro and Big Brown will both get in the Hall.
Bernadini will not but, he would have drilled them both.

none of the three belong. winning the derby doesn't guarantee a spot.

VOL JACK · #72 02-25-2009, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philcski

Why don't you run the list?
I'd like to see it debunked, to be honest.

Her offspring are actually undefeated..both foals to race are each 1-1.

The Indomitable DrugS · #73 02-25-2009, 08:03 PM

yeah - they seemed to have inherited her soundness issues.

The Indomitable DrugS · #74 02-25-2009, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philcski

Why don't you run the list?
I'd like to see it debunked, to be honest.

We already went through this last year. I will copy-paste what I posted last year about it.

Quote:

He trained three champion females in the 90's:

Flanders: Dam of 4 time Grade 1 winner and $1.8 million earner Surfside.

Serena's Song: Dam of 5 stake horses including Group 1 winner Sophisticat and Grade 2 winners Harlington and Grand Reward.

Golden Attraction: Dam of a stakes winner - and two other horses who are Graded Stakes placed.

His champs in the 80's:

Althea: Dam of 4 different group or Graded Stakes winners.

Family Style: Dam of stakes winner Polish Style

Lady's Secret: Lousy producer in terms of quality - however several of her offspring sold very well.

Landaluce: Never made it into the shed

Life's Magic: Dam of three different horses who earned blacktype

Open Mind: She had problems - only two foals - one of which was 4-2-1-0 and made 300K in Japan

Sacahuista: Dam of Group 1 winning millionaire Ekaraar as well as productive race horse and stallion Hussonet

Winning Colors: Dam of millionaire acution purchase Golden Colors who was 3-for-10 and made over 500K in Japan. Several of hers also sold well - including a $2.5 million Broad Brush dud.

Lukas also trained the excellent top class race mare Terlingua in the early 80's - she was the dam of Storm Cat.

Cannon Shell · #75 02-25-2009, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VOL JACK

Barbaro and Big Brown will both get in the Hall.
Bernadini will not but, he would have drilled them both.

Big Brown has no chance
barbaro doesnt deserve it on accomplishment but he has sympathy

Danzig · #76 02-25-2009, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Big Brown has no chance
barbaro doesnt deserve it on accomplishment but he has sympathy

worked for heath ledger-not that he knows it tho.

philcski · #77 02-25-2009, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

We already went through this last year. I will copy-paste what I posted last year about it.

Thanks- nice work. However, besides Flanders, Althea, and Serena's Song, it's a stretch to say any of the rest did much in the shed. He had so many great fillies... what about the ones like Sharp Cat who were tremendous, but never won a championship, and were just dreadful as producers?

Perhaps my expectations have been too high of them over the years as he really did train some tremendous fillies.

Thunder Gulch · #78 02-25-2009, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Oh, wow, he won four million dollar races?

He must be the best horsey ever.

He lost way too many races as a 2YO, whether he was best in them or not, and while he won some big races, and was a very good horse ( better, in fact, than the greatest horse ever, Big Brown ), he had an injury shortened career. He never faced olders.

Next.

We don't know what Point Given would have done, but he was certainly no ordinary horse, even by G1 standards. As discussed, he is the only horse to win 4 straight million dollar races in a 6 for 7 campaign at 3. He missed being the 2yo champ by a desperate nose to Macho Uno in the BC Juvenile.

King Glorious · #79 02-25-2009, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danzig

yeah, that's true.
but i think we'll continue to see horses that probably don't belong in there-because what alternative is there, other than to see none inducted in future? i don't even get much excitement at the thought of tiznow going in-he had his moments, but he doesn't have an overwhelming career.
isn't that what they should have?

Unfortunately, that's what we are looking at happening because not too many from this era deserve it. It's sad because it's not the fault of the horses because they don't chose to be raced five times a year and retired after their 3yo seasons.

Maybe there should be a new wing added. Or an asterisk applied and call this the "modern era" and have the pre-1980 horses on one side and the post-1980 horses on the other. I wouldn't even do that though. I'd just list all of the eligible horse and anyone of them that gets 90% of the vote goes in. Instead of lowering the standards, how about raising them.

blackthroatedwind · #80 02-25-2009, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunder Gulch

We don't know what Point Given would have done, but he was certainly no ordinary horse, even by G1 standards. As discussed, he is the only horse to win 4 straight million dollar races in a 6 for 7 campaign at 3. He missed being the 2yo champ by a desperate nose to Macho Uno in the BC Juvenile.

Let me see if I have this straight.....horses belong in the Hall of Fame if they are close to being 2YO champions and not ordinary?

OK....gotcha.

When the hell is Jeannie Jones getting in anyway?