Santa Anita Injuries; Trainers meet, complain

[Riot]

Yeah well sports medicine hasn't done a whole hell of a lot to change breakdown rates over the years.

Who still buys yearlings with multiple vascular channels showing in their sesamoids on the prepurchase rads?

Does anyone keep a big growthy young colt at pasture with virtually no breaking or work at all until he's three? Do people feed that big growthy colt high protein to make him grow more quickly?

Anybody still use 6mm toe rims?

Do most give a horse starting with little bit of sore shins complete pasture rest for 60 days, or work him through it?

If you cant see that publishing monthly breakdown rates is a waste of time and leads people to draw completely unfounded conclusions that that is your cross to bear. Simply releasing data can do nothing but further confuse the issue.

In some eyes they are damned if they do (release data) and damned if they don't (evil hiding of data).

IMO, the more info out there, the better.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

Who still buys yearlings with multiple vascular channels showing in their sesamoids on the prepurchase rads?

Does anyone keep a big growthy young colt at pasture with virtually no breaking or work at all until he's three? Do people feed that big growthy colt high protein to make him grow more quickly?

Anybody still use 6mm toe rims?

Do most give a horse starting with little bit of sore shins complete pasture rest for 60 days, or work him through it?



In some eyes they are damned if they do (release data) and damned if they don't (evil hiding of data).

IMO, the more info out there, the better.

I fail to see the logic of your post?

So in your opinion releasing the data on a monthly basis by the KHRC is a good thing? Since they have no idea why it changes radically (and they are supposedly experts) what is the benefit? To confuse matters further?

The reality is that will do a study, find that the conclusions are the same as always (undetermined) and move on to do more studies. This puzzle has NO ANSWER!!! While research into horse health and soundness specifically is underfunded and greatly needed, what they are trying to do in tying all breakdowns together and finding a common cause is an impossible task.

[Riot]

This puzzle has NO ANSWER!!!

I completely disagree.

I don't understand how you can say on one hand research is underfunded and needed, then dismiss it out of hand saying one will never be able to reach any useful conclusions.

Dr. Mary Scollary is trying to collect detailed information, but some won't participate.

All the examples I listed are topics that sportsmedicine has looked at, and within each topic one path leads to increased breakdowns, and taking a different path doesn't. Yes, sportsmedicine has helped decrease breakdown rates.

You are right, breakdowns have multiple causes. That doesn't mean we can't start to figure out the contributors.

Yes, I'm glad KHRC is releasing the numbers, and being open about how many occur. I sure don't look at them as "experts" on breakdown causality.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

I completely disagree.

I don't understand how you can say on one hand research is underfunded and needed, then dismiss it out of hand saying one will never be able to reach any useful conclusions.

Dr. Mary Scollary is trying to collect detailed information, but some won't participate.

All the examples I listed are topics that sportsmedicine has looked at, and within each topic one path leads to increased breakdowns, and taking a different path doesn't. Yes, sportsmedicine has helped decrease breakdown rates.

You are right, breakdowns have multiple causes. That doesn't mean we can't start to figure out the contributors.

Yes, I'm glad KHRC is releasing the numbers, and being open about how many occur. I sure don't look at them as "experts" on breakdown causality.

I hate to tell you but we already know the vast majority of WHY horses breakdown. Because they are made of flesh and blood!

How has sports medicine helped decrease breakdown rates when we dont even have accurate numbers now let alone from years ago?

This is all bs. Despite the medical advances, horses still get hurt and as evidenced by the chaos in reporting the breakdowns in CA and Turfway there isnt any real advances in decreasing these rates.

Releasing the numbers is a terrible idea. There is nothing to be gained from it on either side. If the numbers go down then the tracks crow that they have a safe track and the rules are correct. If the numbers spike, everybody wrings hands and adjusts rules and come up with theories. Nothing positive is being reported to a general public that has little understanding of the issue.

We can report all the injuries that they can record but each and everyone is different. We dont even know how or when many of these injuries occur. The subject is far too broad to be able to narrow it to a few things.

The fact that human judgement is involved makes the regulation part flawed just as human judgement is. Mary Scollay has great intentions and is a nice lady. She should keep the numbers to herself until she has finished her study because getting this out of the publics eyes is in the best interests of horseracing until there are conclusions (even though those conclusions will be as murky in detail as most studies on thoroughbreds)

[Honu]

Originally Posted by Riot

I completely disagree.

I don't understand how you can say on one hand research is underfunded and needed, then dismiss it out of hand saying one will never be able to reach any useful conclusions.

Dr. Mary Scollary is trying to collect detailed information, but some won't participate.

All the examples I listed are topics that sportsmedicine has looked at, and within each topic one path leads to increased breakdowns, and taking a different path doesn't. Yes, sportsmedicine has helped decrease breakdown rates.

You are right, breakdowns have multiple causes. That doesn't mean we can't start to figure out the contributors.

Yes, I'm glad KHRC is releasing the numbers, and being open about how many occur. I sure don't look at them as "experts" on breakdown causality.

I think (and this just my opinon) that the biggest contributing factor to horses breaking down is racing them . Ha I solved the problem.
Seriously , accidents happen but the thing I see the most is people not being diligent caretakers , when I see certain trainers sitting at clockers corner all morning being more interested in visiting with their friends than going back and forth to the barn and actually looking at the horses it is hard for me to feel bad for the trainer when they have one break down. I know that trainers have several strings and rely on assistants to look at the horses daily (guys like Whitey that works for Pletch goes back and forth with each set ) but I cant help noticing the one's that never seem to be at the barn in the morning and when they have one breakdown it really doesnt shock me as I think they really prolly have no clue whats going on in their own shed.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

1.
Who still buys yearlings with multiple vascular channels showing in their sesamoids on the prepurchase rads?

2.Does anyone keep a big growthy young colt at pasture with virtually no breaking or work at all until he's three? Do people feed that big growthy colt high protein to make him grow more quickly?

3.Anybody still use 6mm toe rims?

4.Do most give a horse starting with little bit of sore shins complete pasture rest for 60 days, or work him through it?



In some eyes they are damned if they do (release data) and damned if they don't (evil hiding of data).

IMO, the more info out there, the better.

The answer to number one is obvious

Number 2 is a bit strange. Why would anyone keep a horse in a paddock till they were 3? When has this ever been popular? And if they were big and growthy why would anyone want them to grow?

Number 3- They cant but the elimination of them has hardly kept horses sounder

number 4- People do both and both can work depending on the horse. people also scrape shins, pin fire and even freeze fire them. Some horses get shins and they go away. Some get them over and over again.

[Riot]

I give up.

Yeah, it's all bs.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

I give up.

Yeah, it's all bs.

Honu just mentioned the white elephant in the room and you are giving up now? Hell it is trainer pile on time!

Seriously the human element cannot be quantified. There are some guys that do things that are beyond the line. All breakdowns arent surprises.

[Honu]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Honu just mentioned the white elephant in the room and you are giving up now? Hell it is trainer pile on time!

Seriously the human element cannot be quantified. There are some guys that do things that are beyond the line. All breakdowns arent surprises.

Im not saying its trainer pile on time , I respect what good trainers do and how they take care of their horses and I dont know you in real life but I assume you really care about your horses. What I dont respect and have a hard time grasping is how it is more important to visit with your friends than be at the barn actually training.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Honu

Im not saying its trainer pile on time , I respect what good trainers do and how they take care of their horses and I dont know you in real life but I assume you really care about your horses. What I dont respect and have a hard time grasping is how it is more important to visit with your friends than be at the barn actually training.

He definitely does.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Honu

Im not saying its trainer pile on time , I respect what good trainers do and how they take care of their horses and I dont know you in real life but I assume you really care about your horses. What I dont respect and have a hard time grasping is how it is more important to visit with your friends than be at the barn actually training.

I understand and wasnt taking offense. Let not kid ourselves into thinking that some horses that are sent out to run have no business being out there.

[Honu]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I understand and wasnt taking offense. Let not kid ourselves into thinking that some horses that are sent out to run have no business being out there.

This I know , in fact just about my whole career as a jockey was riding the kind of horses that most likely shouldnt have been racing but when that is all there is ,what does a person with limited ability and the desire to be a jockey do.
I am very gratefull that I have gotten to where I am in this buisness , Im gratefull to be working for someone who really does care and has the knowledge to know when to hold em and when to fold them.
There are really no full proof ways to prevent horses from getting injuries other than not racing them , even the best horseman still have horses get hurt , all we in this industry can do is our best , unfortunitly there are people who dont do their best or who just plain dont care.

[Phalaris1913]

Does anyone know if there's been a study to look at injury rates on synthetic surfaces broken down by where the horses have been primarily racing or training prior to the injury? It's one thing to talk about x injuries per y starts, but I would be curious to see if there's a statistically significant difference between injury rates per y starts broken down by horses which have been racing and training over that surface vs. horses which had been racing and training over other surfaces, such natural dirt, turf or other synthetic surfaces.

[Riot]

I don't think anyone has specifically looked at that from the sense you are coming from - they generally have compared breakdown rates at the same facility before and after synthetic installation without separating out where horses are training or shipping in from (Europe, Australia). As you know training locations vary more in countries other than the USA.

You might consider that the non-USA studies are nearly all turf (no dirt), so it's virtually all turf to synthetic.

Go here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez

Enter as your search terms thoroughbred equine

That will get you a couple thousand hits (limited to recent), then you can narrow (don't narrow too specifically initially). You also can do an advanced search as alot of that data is now older than 5 years so is falling off the "current" screen and doesn't come up unless you search diligently (I was trying to find the NYRA data on breakdowns at Aque-Sar-Bel from the 1980's)