Which horses were truly great?

[Slewbopper]

Caspar Milquetoast. He was great to me. first winning bet I made.... Agadirt back around '73

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by DogsUp

Since 2000 not one pitcher has had more than 9 complete games in in one season. Phil Niekro had over 20 complete games in 77-78-79. Fernando had 20 in 1986 and Tom Seaver has 21 in 1971. If you look at the pitchers (starting) in the Hall of Fame prior to 1990, they all have multiple years in which they had over 20 complete games multiple times. Tom Glavin who will be in the Hall has never had more than 9 complete games, Greg Maddox had 10 complete games twice in his career. So the expecation of number of complete games has decreased as a measure for inductiuon into the hall of fame.

Since when is complete games a key component of a pitcher being elected? I have never heard that a pitcher was a serious canidate because he completes games. Those guys you named are getting in because they won 300 games, won cy youngs, won playoff games, had great era's and had really long careers. Lets see how many of the current crop of Pitchers that are starting their careers now get elected.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

I think they are as old as you....is that really old?

pretty old

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

For the elite of the elite? Absolutely. In basketball history would you consider the 30th best player of all time to be the elite of the elite just cause there are millions who have played basketball? I wouldn't.

The NBA had its 50 greatest players...

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

crazy, she was very good, but so was Azeri. Take away the in the slop blow out win and her record was very good, but probably not even HOF material.

Azeri was champion mare 3 years running, while carrying weight, winning in 4 states and 8 tracks and two trainers (one of which was not very good).

Azeri was a very good filly. II was better.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by DogsUp

Are you serious? Here are 50 players..you name the 21 that shouldnt be on the list.

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Nate Archibald

Paul Arizin

Charles Barkley

Rick Barry

Elgin Baylor

Dave Bing

Larry Bird

Wilt Chamberlain

Bob Cousy

Dave Cowens

Billy Cunningham

Dave DeBusschere

Clyde Drexler

Julius Erving

Patrick Ewing

Walt Frazier

George Gervin

Hal Greer

John Havlicek

Elvin Hayes

Magic Johnson

Sam Jones

Michael Jordan

Jerry Lucas

Karl Malone

Moses Malone

Pete Maravich

Kevin McHale

George Mikan

Earl Monroe

Hakeem Olajuwon

Shaquille O'Neal

Robert Parish

Bob Pettit

Scottie Pippen

Willis Reed

Oscar Robertson

David Robinson

Bill Russell

Dolph Schayes

Bill Sharman

John Stockton

Isiah Thomas

Nate Thurmond

Wes Unseld

Bill Walton

Jerry West

Lenny Wilkens

James Worthy

If we include GM and coaching ....you know who...

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

I'm already having this debate on another forum and it seems as good a time as any to bring it here. Which horses were truly great? For the purposes of this thread great means they were both brilliant and accomplished and the elite of the elite. Ghostzapper was brilliant but not accomplished enough to fit the definition. Cigar was accomplished but not brilliant enough to fit the definition. Here is who I believe fits the truly great label. Who would you remove or add?

Hindoo (1878)
Kingston (1884)
Salvator (1886)
Colin (1905)
Man o War (1917)
War Admiral (1934)
Count Fleet (1940)
Citation (1945)
Tom Fool (1949)
Native Dancer (1950)
Nashua (1952)
Swaps (1952)
Round Table (1954)
Kelso (1957)
Buckpasser (1963)
Dr Fager (1964)
Damascus (1964)
Secretriat (1970)
Forego (1970)
Seattle Slew (1974)
Affirmed (1975)
Spectacular Bid (1976)


I'm only talking North American based horses and not giving anyone a break cause they are a filly. If their biggest accomplishment is that they beat the boys and are great "for a filly" that doesn't count. All of these horses beat the boys every race and would be otherwordly if they were fillies.

old rosebud. when man o war was making his mark, he was compared to old rosebud.
exterminator, colin, personal ensign

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Let me ask you this? How many males in the history of this sport would have gone 13 for 13 if allowed to run in the same 13 races as Personal Ensign? I think a lot more than the 22 horses I listed. If she were male would she be regarded as highly or is she so highly regarded because she was so great for a filly?

but keep in mind that she did beat a fellow eclipse award winner (gulch) and won most of those races after coming back from a broken leg. she wasn't just a filly-most fillies don't get as much respect as they should because they don't run in open races, but personal ensign did just that. for a horse to win out at two is something anyway, since they're just learning.
also, ruffian was never headed til she lost, and that was her first time vs males-well, a male. but she blew out the clock as well as her competition.

i think that we all start adding too many horses to the 'great' list. there really are a few who have transcended time-man o war, secretariat, dr fager. so when you start mentioning skip away-does he belong with those three?
maybe not, but he was a great horse.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

I think it is ridiculous to ignore their sex. She would have to be on that list. also Ruffian, Lady's Secret and a few others... like maybe Regret?

The way you describe... Billy Jean King couldnt be an "elite" tennis player because she couldnt have beat Arthur Ashe or Pete Sampras??

genuine risk belongs too. no filly has had a better tc then her, a win and two seconds-hell, that's better than alydars record in the classics!

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

I think they are as old as you....is that really old?

ooo, watch it now, i just caught up to chuck again!

[RollerDoc]

Originally Posted by Danzig

old rosebud. when man o war was making his mark, he was compared to old rosebud.
exterminator, colin, personal ensign

Danzig, I am curious. Where do you rank Alydar on this subject?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

Danzig, I am curious. Where do you rank Alydar on this subject?

alydar had the great misfortune to be in the same crop as affirmed. affirmed got the best of alydar far more often than alydar returned the favor. most years alydar would have been called one of the best of all time, had he not faced a monster.
i think a lot of what made affirmed so great is that he had alydar as a measuring stick. i would have no problem with alydar being spoken of as one of the best the sport has seen, as i think he was.
it's funny that he sired another horse that faced the same situation years later. easy goer was one hell of a horse, but sunday silence beat him 3 out of 4, altho of course one was just a head bob. the picture of those two at the wire of the preakness is my favorite photo ever of a horse race. it's what we all want to see, and almost never do!

[RollerDoc]

Originally Posted by Danzig

alydar had the great misfortune to be in the same crop as affirmed. affirmed got the best of alydar far more often than alydar returned the favor. most years alydar would have been called one of the best of all time, had he not faced a monster.
i think a lot of what made affirmed so great is that he had alydar as a measuring stick. i would have no problem with alydar being spoken of as one of the best the sport has seen, as i think he was.
it's funny that he sired another horse that faced the same situation years later. easy goer was one hell of a horse, but sunday silence beat him 3 out of 4, altho of course one was just a head bob. the picture of those two at the wire of the preakness is my favorite photo ever of a horse race. it's what we all want to see, and almost never do!

Good stuff and thanks. I have done some reading and research on this awesome Alydar. I wish I could have seen him run when my interest in this sport had piqued in the past five years. I have also read the sad story of perhaps his contraversial death and the whole Calumet Farms corruption episode.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Personal Ensign HAS to be on the list.

I'd agree if she had run in the Classic that year and beaten Alysheba.

By Sniper's original definition, it's not enough to be a great filly to make his list.

--Dunbar

[SlewsMyHero]

A horse that rarely gets mentioned when talking about all time greats has these credentials:

Lifetime record 46 starts 20 - 10 - 4

2 Time Grade I winner at 1 1/4 miles

Multiple Grade I wins at 1 mile to 1 1/8 miles

A Stakes winner on Grass

and

A Breeders' Cup Sprint Winner

There aren't too many that are this versatile.

The horse's name was Precisionist.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Danzig

old rosebud. when man o war was making his mark, he was compared to old rosebud.
exterminator, colin, personal ensign

I'm probably unfairly punishing Old Rosebud (like his owners did) for running far too long. Still pretty cool for a horse to be champion 2yo and then champion handicap horse at 6. I already have Colin on the list. Exterminator has a strong case.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I would be hard pressed not to include Cigar, Skip Away, Alysheba, Ferdinand, Manila, Lure, Miesque, Sunday Silence, Easy Goer, Ladys Secret, Inside information, John Henry, Ruffian, maybe All Along

Very nice list. How about Whirlaway? The only horses on Sniper's list to have won more races are Kingston, Kelso, and Forego. Whirlaway set a Ky Derby record that stood for 21 years. Two-time HOY.

That said, I understand Sniper's wish to try to draw a line under the elite of the elite. Cigar, Alysheba and Sunday Silence were all personal favs, but I couldn't put any of them above the horses in Sniper's list.

--Dunbar

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

I'm already having this debate on another forum and it seems as good a time as any to bring it here. Which horses were truly great? For the purposes of this thread great means they were both brilliant and accomplished and the elite of the elite. Ghostzapper was brilliant but not accomplished enough to fit the definition. Cigar was accomplished but not brilliant enough to fit the definition. Here is who I believe fits the truly great label. Who would you remove or add?

Hindoo (1878)
Kingston (1884)
Salvator (1886)
Colin (1905)
Man o War (1917)
War Admiral (1934)
Count Fleet (1940)
Citation (1945)
Tom Fool (1949)
Native Dancer (1950)
Nashua (1952)
Swaps (1952)
Round Table (1954)
Kelso (1957)
Buckpasser (1963)
Dr Fager (1964)
Damascus (1964)
Secretriat (1970)
Forego (1970)
Seattle Slew (1974)
Affirmed (1975)
Spectacular Bid (1976)


I'm only talking North American based horses and not giving anyone a break cause they are a filly. If their biggest accomplishment is that they beat the boys and are great "for a filly" that doesn't count. All of these horses beat the boys every race and would be otherwordly if they were fillies.

Well, it's your list but how can you leave off Exterminator? He won 50 of 100 races and more stakes -- 30 -- than any horse before or since.

I'd also put Grey Lag on the list. He won 25 races out of less than 50 starts and won 8 straght stakes race starts. He retired at 5 but came back as a 9 yo to win both his starts that year.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

Well, it's your list but how can you leave off Exterminator? He won 50 of 100 races and more stakes -- 30 -- than any horse before or since.

I'd also put Grey Lag on the list. He won 25 races out of less than 50 starts and won 8 straght stakes race starts. He retired at 5 but came back as a 9 yo to win both his starts that year.

That also means he lost 50 out of 100. I have tough time putting a horse in the upper tier that only won half his starts. Grey Lag was really only great for one year which hurts his case.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

That also means he lost 50 out of 100. I have tough time putting a horse in the upper tier that only won half his starts. Grey Lag was really only great for one year which hurts his case.

Really, so what?

Go back and check the weight Exterminator gave away. How much, how often and to what horses.

If all you are looking for are animals who had good records over a couple years, how can you leave off Black Ruby?