The 3-year-old males

[Danzig]

for starters, bill mott hasn't exactly lit up the derby scene. an awesome trainer, but not one well known for his prowess with getting a 3 yo to churchill. as for limited racing, i think saying trainers deserve benefit of the doubt with only two starts only emboldens trainers to do such things. it seems that it used to be a trainer got brave when he had a good horse, and took on any comer so he could prove it. now, trainers get chicken when they sense a horse has talent. it shouldn't be accepted practice, and people shouldn't just shrug and say trainers know best. the best should be bred to the best to produce the best; hothouse flowers who aren't tried and tested are what we currently see in the shed, and look where it's getting us. this sport needs revamping in a serious way, and there's no better place to start than on the road to the t.c. i think there should be a minimum number of starts requirement as well as getting rid of 2 yo earnings. this race has a huge impact on breeding, it should be limited to horses who deserve a shot to pass on their genes. horses handled with kid gloves due to brittleness or unsoundness need not apply!

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Danzig

for starters, bill mott hasn't exactly lit up the derby scene. an awesome trainer, but not one well known for his prowess with getting a 3 yo to churchill. as for limited racing, i think saying trainers deserve benefit of the doubt with only two starts only emboldens trainers to do such things. it seems that it used to be a trainer got brave when he had a good horse, and took on any comer so he could prove it. now, trainers get chicken when they sense a horse has talent. it shouldn't be accepted practice, and people shouldn't just shrug and say trainers know best. the best should be bred to the best to produce the best; hothouse flowers who aren't tried and tested are what we currently see in the shed, and look where it's getting us. this sport needs revamping in a serious way, and there's no better place to start than on the road to the t.c. i think there should be a minimum number of starts requirement as well as getting rid of 2 yo earnings. this race has a huge impact on breeding, it should be limited to horses who deserve a shot to pass on their genes. horses handled with kid gloves due to brittleness or unsoundness need not apply!

Specific races.... People said that about Todd also. Has Mott ever had a really big named horse going in? Im sure he has, Im just drawing a blank.

[Danzig]

my talk about mott was in response to betsy saying she had complete faith in him heading to the derby. i don't care who the trainer is, i don't agree with only two starts for a horse in that amount of time. and they wonder why a horse can't withstand the grueling three races in five weeks; it's because they have no bottom. they aren't tested going in. and if they can't withstand what it takes to run in those races, they have no business being there in the first place. people bemoan the lack of a tc winner in years; well i think a big part of that is the change in training. horses are asked to go too long at two, they have no steady progression in distance at three. they don't run enough early on, they don't get strong enough, and they can't last.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by Danzig

my talk about mott was in response to betsy saying she had complete faith in him heading to the derby. i don't care who the trainer is, i don't agree with only two starts for a horse in that amount of time. and they wonder why a horse can't withstand the grueling three races in five weeks; it's because they have no bottom. they aren't tested going in. and if they can't withstand what it takes to run in those races, they have no business being there in the first place. people bemoan the lack of a tc winner in years; well i think a big part of that is the change in training. horses are asked to go too long at two, they have no steady progression in distance at three. they don't run enough early on, they don't get strong enough, and they can't last.

You are making entirely too much sense in this thread.

Is it true that Uncle Mo's first start of the year is the Tampa Bay Derby?

If so, that is ridiculous. Just retire the horse now.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

You are making entirely too much sense in this thread.

sorry, must be the crown black talking. good stuff.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Is it true that Uncle Mo's first start of the year is the Tampa Bay Derby?

If so, that is ridiculous. Just retire the horse now.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Is it true that Uncle Mo's first start of the year is the Tampa Bay Derby?

If so, that is ridiculous. Just retire the horse now.

Tampa Bay-Wood-Kentucky.
Its been that way for a while now.

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Tampa Bay-Wood-Kentucky.
Its been that way for a while now.

That's weak s.hit. He might as well burn 10,000,000 vitamin waters in a massive bonfire.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

That's weak s.hit. He might as well burn 10,000,000 vitamin waters in a massive bonfire.

I like it.
And not because I love UM.
He should kill the Tampa Bay Derby and win the Wood for fun. This crop is deep, everyone knows it. He goes 2-2 this year, off of last year he could be 4-5 or less in the Derby. I would use a number of horses trying to beat him going 10f. A lot of the good horses so far, have a lot of early zip. Just like UM, he could get cooked Belamy Road style. Just to close to a fast pace.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

I like it.
And not because I love UM.
He should kill the Tampa Bay Derby and win the Wood for fun. This crop is deep, everyone knows it. He goes 2-2 this year, off of last year he could be 4-5 or less in the Derby. I would use a number of horses trying to beat him going 10f. A lot of the good horses so far, have a lot of early zip. Just like UM, he could get cooked Belamy Road style. Just to close to a fast pace.

it's not even mid-february, and you're already declaring this a deep crop?! gimme a break. some of last years top two year olds haven't even made their first start yet, plenty of 3 yo's have yet to show what they can do. others have yet to show they're not going to maintain last years form. just knock it off already. no one has a good idea yet about this bunch of three year olds. based on what are you saying it's a good crop? works? cause the trainer said so? can't be based on races. can't be based on one top three year old taking on another, it hasn't happened yet.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Is it true that Uncle Mo's first start of the year is the Tampa Bay Derby?

If so, that is ridiculous. Just retire the horse now.

Same race where Street Sense and Super Saver made their 3yo debuts ... the Tampa Bay Derby has benefited big from GP reconfiguring to a 9f track.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Danzig

it's not even mid-february, and you're already declaring this a deep crop?! gimme a break. some of last years top two year olds haven't even made their first start yet, plenty of 3 yo's have yet to show what they can do. others have yet to show they're not going to maintain last years form. just knock it off already. no one has a good idea yet about this bunch of three year olds. based on what are you saying it's a good crop? works? cause the trainer said so? can't be based on races. can't be based on one top three year old taking on another, it hasn't happened yet.

I dont think Im the only one declaring this a deep crop. These horses at 2 were running faster races then BC Classic horses. And not just UM, THAS is fast. Dialed In is the real deal, and check out some of the horses Vic mentioned in this thread.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

I dont think Im the only one declaring this a deep crop. These horses at 2 were running faster races then BC Classic horses. And not just UM, THAS is fast. Dialed In is the real deal, and check out some of the horses Vic mentioned in this thread.

i'm just making the contention that it's far, far too soon to say with any certaintly what this group of 3 yo's will be. and again, altho good at two, there are questions to be answered by these horses. not having a race since november makes it hard to judge what these horses are like now, don't you think?

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Same race where Street Sense and Super Saver made their 3yo debuts ... the Tampa Bay Derby has benefited big from GP reconfiguring to a 9f track.

Is Calvin riding Uncle Mo?

[DaTruth]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Specific races.... People said that about Todd also. Has Mott ever had a really big named horse going in? Im sure he has, Im just drawing a blank.

In 1984 Mott had Blue Grass and Louisiana Derby winner Taylor's Special run in the Derby. But that horse, although very good, was a son of Hawkin's Special and had distance limitations. He was essentially turned into a miler/sprinter after his 3yo season ended with a decent 4th in the Preakness.

[Danzig]

http://www.drf.com/news/boys-toscono...rail-sent-farm


bad new for boys at toscanova fans... and is one of the reasons why i cautioned going purely by 2 yo form when choosing your derby fave. we know this stuff happens, where top horses coming into a new season can't get to churchill in may. doesn't ease the sting a bit tho. hopefully they find what's wrong with him, and can bring him back to training. but who knows? that's racing i guess. good luck to 'boys' and maybe they can find him a new trainer in the meantime!!

[Princess Doreen]

Sortable list of 2011 Triple Crown nominations - only 4 fillies

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...ia/nominations

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I've always said that if you don't go into the Derby with the intention of winning it, you shouldn't go at all. If you do go planning on winning it, the next step is obviously the Preakness. The point is, if you aren't preparing your horse for the entire series, you are asking for trouble. How can you expect a horse that's conditioned to run once every 6-8 weeks to be ready to run three times in six weeks? You can't.

As for the hype of the horses, I think it's really a case of people are looking for hope where maybe it's not really there. But this is what the sport has left us with. Horses don't run enough anymore for us to properly evaluate actual talent and ability against other top horses so all we can do is watch a good horse beat mediocres and pin our hopes on them as future stars. I think back to my first year as a fan, 1986. We had Java Gold, Polish Navy, Gulch, Capote, Bet Twice, Talinum, Temperate Sil, Demons Begone, Qualify, Alysheba...the list goes on.....and they were competing against each other regularly as 2yos and on the TC trail as 3yos. We KNEW who the top horses were. Yearly, that was the case. It wasn't like now where it's mostly speculating and guessing.

I couldn't agree more with you. This 'resting' horses after even easy races just gives their bones and muscles time to lose the remodeling that the race gave them. And it seems to have been instituted by the 'sheets guys' analyses. Don't run him back too soon or he'll bounce! They have no training in exercise physiology or anything similar, and they haven't trained a racehorse in the flesh, yet everybody listens to them anyway. Madness. I am a mathematician, holding a doctorate in mathematical statistics, and I can tell you that a complex situation like a racehorse's performance in a race can't be described by a single number.

My first 'Derby' season was 1971 and I had latched onto Jim French, the hickory throwback to an earlier era who seemed to run every 10 days or so. He took part in all 4 parts of the Hialeah Derby series (won the Bahamas but had to give it back) with a couple of placings, then ran in the Bay Shore, Florida Derby, and Santa Anita Derby on consecutive weekends, placing in the first two and winning the last. And since it was then 4 weeks to the Derby, he ran in the Wood Memorial (4th). If that critter Canonero II hadn't shipped in from Venezuela, Jim French would have been the Derby winner, because he was a clear second on the day. None of the US-raced 3yos that year were all that much - except Hoist the Flag, who got hurt early - but they ran against one another all spring. Bold Reason, Executioner, Good Behaving, His Majesty - all nice horses who won good races in their lifetimes, but nothing even Riva Ridge-style special. Nobody was worried about their stud value being diminished by a loss because it wasn't until they had run 8-10 times that any of them HAD any value as a stallion.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Princess Doreen

Sortable list of 2011 Triple Crown nominations - only 4 fillies

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...ia/nominations

but won't there be other opportunities in the next few months to nominate?