The degeneration of the sport over the last 15 years

[Thoroughbred Fan]

Originally Posted by Left Bank

I thought it was because you're trying to bang him.

Ouch!

[Indian Charlie]

Poor RHT.

What he doesn't know about DrugS is that he once told me he isn't attracted to other Italians (by other I mean Italians other than himself).

[Bigsmc]

Originally Posted by Left Bank

I thought it was because you're trying to bang him.

I don't think PG has found the Mine That Bird thread yet....

[Travis Stone]

Not that I'm saying Lukas was the greatest trainer ever, but exactly how many horses did he break down? How many did he "break down" on a national stage, in the spotlight? Is it more than say, other big name trainers in the game today?

[letswastemoney]

When I was a kid, I remember being a huge fan of the Lukas trained Criminal Type. I wish he wouldn't have gotten injured in the middle of the year. Heck if SS, Easy Goer, and Criminal Type never got injured, it would have been a great BC Classic.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

The thing is, though, and I know you're aware of it, is that DrugS could have just as easily posted the PPs of Cigar, Skip Away, or a slew of others and had the same effect. DWL may be a bit more "controversial" trainer to include but the point is the same, the horsemen nowadays are not the same.

NT

The 90's weren't that long ago Nick and many of those players are still in the game. In my opinion, it has more to do with economics than anything else.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

The 90's weren't that long ago Nick and many of those players are still in the game. In my opinion, it has more to do with economics than anything else.

I think it's more of an epidemic propagated by the 21st Century "super trainers" specifically guys like Todd Pletcher, whose "optimum days between start" index is somewhere between 60 and 3000.

NT

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Lukas did not Tabasco Cat into the ground.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by HomerS

Are you saying he didnt?

You're hopeless.

Tabasco Cat is the one of the great examples of Lukas running one into the ground? Tears, Jerry, tears.



Before sending Tabasco Cat off to stud .. he ran a dirt horse once on the turf because it was a weak Grade 1 turf field. Who cares? That's what dirt horses are supposed to do when they try turf for the first time.

If Tabasco Cat is the best you can do ... give up and ask others to take up your noble cause.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

You're hopeless.

Tabasco Cat is the one of the great examples of Lukas running one into the ground? Tears, Jerry, tears.



Before sending Tabasco Cat off to stud .. he ran a dirt horse once on the turf because it was a weak Grade 1 turf field. Who cares? That's what dirt horses are supposed to do when they try turf for the first time.

If Tabasco Cat is the best you can do ... give up and ask others to take up your noble cause.

To be fair, Tabasco Cat was in training beyond the Hollywood Derby all the way through June of 1995. He was pointed for the Strub, Big Cap, and Met Mile all through the press.

Obviously, he made none of those races, eventually suffering a bowed tendon breezing at Churchill.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

he breezed him into the ground?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

he breezed him into the ground?

Well, I think there was probably more to the story than just the tidbits we were fed by the racing press.

The Hollywood Derby halfway across the country, 15 days after the big BC effort is surely a curious spot if you plan on running the colt the following year. Whether he was injured in that race is unknown as far as we're concerned.

Also, a lot of it depends on your definition of "being run into the ground". Do you need a couple of horrific efforts (eg Munnings) to prove the point, or do you just need to run in every available spot and come out of the last one injured?

Would you say Thunder Gulch was run into the ground? You could argue that the Kentucky Cup race following the Travers was a bit extraneous and the colt came out of the Jockey Club Gold Cup with a fractured leg.

[KirisClown]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Also, a lot of it depends on your definition of "being run into the ground". Do you need a couple of horrific efforts (eg Munnings) to prove the point

Yes It's True might fit that bill.. he finished last in his final four races before they finally retired him..

Editor's Note was pretty awful when he came back in 1997, but they kept on running him.. his final race he was beaten almost 60 lths..

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

The Hollywood Derby halfway across the country, 15 days after the big BC effort is surely a curious spot if you plan on running the colt the following year.

Yeah ... I assumed he was retired ... hard to believe that a well bred son of Storm Cat that won two Classics and was 2nd in the BC Classic would be brought back at all at age 4.

Munnings has a major issue somewhere that they're missing ... he ran a 30 Beyer at CD on Derby day and stopped like he was shot well before the stretch while having inside position just off of a 25 and 50 pace today. I'm not sure he'd win a 5K claimer off the basis of those races. If he doesn't have a big issue ... he's sour as hell. I don't think he was run into the ground.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Munnings has a major issue somewhere that they're missing ... he ran a 30 Beyer at CD on Derby day and stopped like he was shot well before the stretch while having inside position just off of a 25 and 50 pace today. I'm not sure he'd win a 5K claimer off the basis of those races. If he doesn't have a big issue ... he's sour as hell. I don't think he was run into the ground.

Yeah, as far as Munnings go, it was a bad example. I was really only referring to his last couple of races as the type of meltdown that a more heavily campaigned horse might suffer after a long season.

I can't really think of any off the top of my head, but a decent Lukas example would be that Robert Lewis horse he buried on the Triple Crown trail a couple of years ago, I think the name was Going Wild, going from a 6f maiden at Santa Anita in December all the way to the Wood Memorial (he might have even run in the Lexington or Derby) with a race somewhere every 2-3 weeks.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Yeah, as far as Munnings go, it was a bad example. I was really only referring to his last couple of races as the type of meltdown that a more heavily campaigned horse might suffer after a long season.

I can't really think of any off the top of my head, but a decent Lukas example would be that Robert Lewis horse he buried on the Triple Crown trail a couple of years ago, I think the name was Going Wild, going from a 6f maiden at Santa Anita in December all the way to the Wood Memorial (he might have even run in the Lexington or Derby) with a race somewhere every 2-3 weeks.

Yeah - Going Wild was the Sham Stakes winner when Giacomo had that wide trip - I think he may have been a slight post time favorite over Bellamy Road in the Wood Memorial ... where he was beaten a mile.

I just Googled him and he actually won a trio of stakes in New Mexico after Lukas had him.

Scrimshaw was brutally handled by Lukas. He beat Ghostzapper on opening day at SA in that real fast alw race ... won the Lexington off the layoff and injury .. and than he was soundly beat in all 3 triple crown events.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by KirisClown

Yes It's True might fit that bill.. he finished last in his final four races before they finally retired him..

Editor's Note was pretty awful when he came back in 1997, but they kept on running him.. his final race he was beaten almost 60 lths..

Yeah - YIT was kind of a Munnings like situation - but they let it go on for four races instead of 2. YIT went from being a freaky 3yo sprinter to a horse who couldn't beat 5k claimers. His King's Bishop was like Munnings Carter.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Scrimshaw was brutally handled by Lukas. He beat Ghostzapper on opening day at SA in that real fast alw race ...

I was actually in the stands for that race. Eye Of The Tiger, the eventual Derby 5th place finisher (at about 80-1) ran 3rd coming down from Golden Gate.