Derby Trail Forums

Go Back   Derby Trail Forums > Main Forum > The Paddock
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 02-25-2009, 03:37 PM
CSC's Avatar
CSC CSC is offline
Arlington Park
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,408
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS
He took over from Frank Springer. War Emblem dusted my future book bet Repent by 6+ lengths and got a 112 Beyer in his final Derby prep.

Considering the pokey pace in that years Derby - and WE's candy trip - I doubt Baffert moved him up a yard.
Correct it was Springer, I should have knew that, I had him in the Illinois Derby formerly at Sportsman Park.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 02-25-2009, 03:38 PM
parsixfarms parsixfarms is offline
Churchill Downs
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Saratoga Springs
Posts: 1,779
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS
Silverbullletday won the Alabama by 9 lengths with a 115 Beyer. Sky Beauty got just a 98 Beyer in her Alabama win by comparison.
Sky Beauty was an exhausted filly the day that she won the Alabama. Coming off the three filly Triple Crown races at Belmont, she won that day on her class alone.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 02-25-2009, 03:44 PM
The Indomitable DrugS's Avatar
The Indomitable DrugS The Indomitable DrugS is offline
Flemington
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,007
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by parsixfarms
Sky Beauty was an exhausted filly the day that she won the Alabama. Coming off the three filly Triple Crown races at Belmont, she won that day on her class alone.
The Alabama was Sky Beauty's 5th start of the year over her 3rd different track. It was the 8th start of the year for Silverbulletday - over her 7th different track.

Silverbulletday was more exhusted when she won the race by 9 with her 115 Beyer ... thankfully her class carried her through.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 02-25-2009, 03:50 PM
KirisClown's Avatar
KirisClown KirisClown is offline
Stuck in 1994
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,089
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis Stone
I think weight is really overrated unless you're talking a 20-30 pound spread.
When you're talking about a horse with the quality of Inside Information.. I think it would matter somewhat.. She's good enough as it is.. having to carry 7 more pounds than her for a mile has to factor in slightly..
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 02-25-2009, 04:00 PM
KirisClown's Avatar
KirisClown KirisClown is offline
Stuck in 1994
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,089
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS
Believe it or not ... that wasn't one of the times.

She was 0.35-to-1 against Inside Information that day ... her 14-for-14 lifetime record at Belmont Park had a lot to do with that no doubt.

Must have been the Hempstead then... she was awful in there and obviously no longer the same horse.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 02-25-2009, 04:03 PM
parsixfarms parsixfarms is offline
Churchill Downs
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Saratoga Springs
Posts: 1,779
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS
The Alabama was Sky Beauty's 5th start of the year over her 3rd different track. It was the 8th start of the year for Silverbulletday - over her 7th different track.

Silverbulletday was more exhusted when she won the race by 9 with her 115 Beyer ... thankfully her class carried her through.
No, it just means that Silverbulletday had run a few more races. If my memory is correct, SBD was coming off a far less taxing effort prior to the Alabama (in the 8.5F Monmouth Oaks against a few hopelessly outmatched rivals). Sky Beauty was coming off a far more taxing effort in the CCA Oaks, also run at 10F, which was far from her optimal trip.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 02-25-2009, 04:17 PM
The Indomitable DrugS's Avatar
The Indomitable DrugS The Indomitable DrugS is offline
Flemington
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,007
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by parsixfarms
Sky Beauty was coming off a far more taxing effort in the CCA Oaks, also run at 10F, which was far from her optimal trip.
Yeah - she won that one with just a 96 Beyer.

The same 96 Beyer that Silverbulletday got in the Belmont where she set a strong pace while head and head with the Derby and Preakness winner.

... ah, the Belmont, always an easy race for a heavily raced 3yo filly to bounce right back from.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 02-25-2009, 04:24 PM
parsixfarms parsixfarms is offline
Churchill Downs
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Saratoga Springs
Posts: 1,779
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS
Yeah - she won that one with just a 96 Beyer.

The same 96 Beyer that Silverbulletday got in the Belmont where she set a strong pace while head and head with the Derby and Preakness winner.

... ah, the Belmont, always an easy race for a heavily raced 3yo fily to bounce right back from.
Sorry but everything in racing cannot be reduced to a speed figure, and who's to say what helped SBD bounce back so quickly from her Belmont.

The fact is that SBD had more time between her race in the (shorter, easier) Monmouth Oaks and the Alabama than Sky Beauty did between the (longer, tougher) CCA Oaks and her Alabama.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 02-25-2009, 04:24 PM
King Glorious's Avatar
King Glorious King Glorious is offline
Atlantic City Race Course
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Beaumont, CA
Posts: 4,614
Default

When you have to have this much debate on whether or not a horse should be in, should that horse really be in? Shouldn't the hall of famer be for the very best of the best, not just the really good in comparison to's?
__________________
The real horses of the year (1986-2020)
Manila, Java Gold, Alysheba, Sunday Silence, Go for Wand, In Excess, Paseana, Kotashaan, Holy Bull, Cigar, Alphabet Soup, Formal Gold, Skip Away, Artax, Tiznow, Point Given, Azeri, Candy Ride, Smarty Jones, Ghostzapper, Invasor, Curlin, Zenyatta, Zenyatta, Goldikova, Havre de Grace, Wise Dan, Wise Dan, California Chrome, American Pharoah, Arrogate, Gun Runner, Accelerate, Maximum Security, Gamine
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 02-25-2009, 04:36 PM
The Indomitable DrugS's Avatar
The Indomitable DrugS The Indomitable DrugS is offline
Flemington
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,007
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by parsixfarms
Sorry but everything in racing cannot be reduced to a speed figure, and who's to say what helped SBD bounce back so quickly from her Belmont.
You really need to see a speed figure to know her workman like wins over an allowance horse like Future Pretense were lackluster performances?

You really need to see a speed figure to see that going head-to-head with Charismatic through wicked fractions in a 12 furlong race like the Belmont is a taxing thing for a 3yo filly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by parsixfarms
The fact is that SBD had more time between her race in the (shorter, easier) Monmouth Oaks and the Alabama than Sky Beauty did between the (longer, tougher) CCA Oaks and her Alabama.
Sky Beauty had over a month between the CCAO and Alabama - and that was back in the 90's when over a month was like too much time between starts.

Sorry but everything in racing cannot be reduced to lame excuses that horseman use to explain away subpar performance ... though I can assure you that Allen Jerkens never would say that 5 weeks wasn't enough time between races.

How laughably stupid.
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 02-25-2009, 04:55 PM
parsixfarms parsixfarms is offline
Churchill Downs
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Saratoga Springs
Posts: 1,779
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS
You really need to see a speed figure to know her workman like wins over an allowance horse like Future Pretense were lackluster performances?

You really need to see a speed figure to see that going head-to-head with Charismatic through wicked fractions in a 12 furlong race like the Belmont is a taxing thing for a 3yo filly?



Sky Beauty had over a month between the CCAO and Alabama - and that was back in the 90's when over a month was like too much time between starts.

Sorry but everything in racing cannot be reduced to lame excuses that horseman use to explain away subpar performance ... though I can assure you that Allen Jerkens never would say that 5 weeks wasn't enough time between races.

How laughably stupid.
Look, all I said to start this discussion was to observe that Sky Beauty was an exhausted horse the day she won the Alabama. I don't need a speed figure to tell me anything. I'm not the one quoting them like they are some sort of gospel truth. If you feel compelled to use a speed figure to justify your opinion or say that the performance was subpar, that's your prerogative. And it's fine by me. I simply thought that Sky Beauty showed a lot of heart and class when she won the Alabama. Nothing more, nothing less.

The "laughably stupid" comment in this thread was your statement that SBD was "more exhausted" in the Alabama because she had run more times over more race tracks. No reasonable person in attendance at Saratoga for either filly's Alabama (and I was there both days) would have said that Silverbulletday was more exhausted in the Alabama. Later that fall, SBD probably was exhausted, as evidenced by her dismal performance behind Beautiful Pleasure in the BC Distaff, but not at Saratoga.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 02-25-2009, 04:57 PM
ArlJim78 ArlJim78 is offline
Newmarket
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,549
Default

Baffert himself is certainly HOF worthy imo. I wasn't always such a fan but the last two years did it for me, especially getting back to back big years from both Indian Blessing and Midnite Lute, on top of all his prior successes of course.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 02-25-2009, 05:28 PM
The Indomitable DrugS's Avatar
The Indomitable DrugS The Indomitable DrugS is offline
Flemington
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,007
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by parsixfarms
The "laughably stupid" comment in this thread was your statement that SBD was "more exhausted" in the Alabama because she had run more times over more race tracks. No reasonable person in attendance at Saratoga for either filly's Alabama (and I was there both days) would have said that Silverbulletday was more exhausted in the Alabama.
Nice job failing to detect my sarcasam Pedigree Ann Light.

No kidding Silverbulletday wasn't exhausted when she won the Alabama by 9 lengths with a 115 Beyer.

Actually - I'm thinking it's more like Pedigree Ann Ice instead of Pedigree Ann Light ...

she is the master of the silly spin and even she wouldn't argue that five weeks wasn't enough time between starts.

I never said Sky Beauty isn't Hall of Fame material either. However, your painfully silly explanation as to why she performed so poorly in the Alabama deserves it's own wing next to old PG 1985 quotes in the DT Hall of fame.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 02-25-2009, 05:32 PM
slotdirt's Avatar
slotdirt slotdirt is offline
Atlantic City Race Course
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4,894
Default

Am I the only one that just went looking for the DT Hall of Fame? PG 1985 was clearly exhausted when DaHoss whooped him in the great handicapping contest.
__________________
The world's foremost expert on virtually everything on the Redskins 2010 season: "Im going to go out on a limb here. I say they make the playoffs."
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 02-25-2009, 05:36 PM
The Indomitable DrugS's Avatar
The Indomitable DrugS The Indomitable DrugS is offline
Flemington
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,007
Default

Yeah, if only he had more than five weeks to prepare for Hossy.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 02-25-2009, 06:15 PM
Cannon Shell's Avatar
Cannon Shell Cannon Shell is offline
Sha Tin
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 20,855
Default

The issue that I have with the Hall of Fame is that it pits Open Mind, Sky Beauty and Silverbulletday against each other when they all are clearly Hall of famers regardless of what King says.

Why not put the horses and people on the ballots and vote on them. In or out. We dont need a jockey category to know that Alex Solis is a jockey. The current system allows a candidate to be compared to other candidates instead of the standard that is set by the current members ALREADY IN the Hall of Fame. And unlike other sports, a horses career is much shorter, even in the glory days where they raced more than 2 years. Add to the fact that there are both male and female horses in many different categories (turf, dirt, sprint, etc) and there are approximately 35k born a year makes it stupid to vote the same amount of people and horses in any given year.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 02-25-2009, 06:31 PM
King Glorious's Avatar
King Glorious King Glorious is offline
Atlantic City Race Course
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Beaumont, CA
Posts: 4,614
Default

Let's just make it a hall of good horses then. Forget making it the elite of the elite. Put Open Mind and Sky Beauty in the same sentence with Personal Ensign and Lady's Secret. Put Best Pal in the same hall with Spectacular Bid. There's virtually no difference.

The thing that your aren't getting is that they aren't all CLEARLY hall of famers. If they were, nobody on here would be debating it. If Spectacular Bid is on a ballot, do you really think anyone would say "no"? Would we really have to break out his past performances and go over his record? Would anyone need to make a convincing argument on his behalf? That's the point I'm making. You may clearly believe that all three of those mares deserve to be in. That's fine because it's all subjective anyway. But if you can't get 90% of the people to agree on it with you, then I just don't believe they should be in there.
__________________
The real horses of the year (1986-2020)
Manila, Java Gold, Alysheba, Sunday Silence, Go for Wand, In Excess, Paseana, Kotashaan, Holy Bull, Cigar, Alphabet Soup, Formal Gold, Skip Away, Artax, Tiznow, Point Given, Azeri, Candy Ride, Smarty Jones, Ghostzapper, Invasor, Curlin, Zenyatta, Zenyatta, Goldikova, Havre de Grace, Wise Dan, Wise Dan, California Chrome, American Pharoah, Arrogate, Gun Runner, Accelerate, Maximum Security, Gamine
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 02-25-2009, 06:38 PM
letswastemoney's Avatar
letswastemoney letswastemoney is offline
The Curragh
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Turlock, CA
Posts: 2,561
Default

So.....

basically they are doing this every year just for the sake of having a ceremony?? Won't they eventually run out of horses to put in the Hall of Fame if they do this every single year??
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 02-25-2009, 06:45 PM
The Indomitable DrugS's Avatar
The Indomitable DrugS The Indomitable DrugS is offline
Flemington
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,007
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by King Glorious
Let's just make it a hall of good horses then. Forget making it the elite of the elite.
If they did that.. King Glorious would be in the hall of fame... as would Indian Charlie.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 02-25-2009, 06:45 PM
Cannon Shell's Avatar
Cannon Shell Cannon Shell is offline
Sha Tin
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 20,855
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by King Glorious
Let's just make it a hall of good horses then. Forget making it the elite of the elite. Put Open Mind and Sky Beauty in the same sentence with Personal Ensign and Lady's Secret. Put Best Pal in the same hall with Spectacular Bid. There's virtually no difference.

The thing that your aren't getting is that they aren't all CLEARLY hall of famers. If they were, nobody on here would be debating it. If Spectacular Bid is on a ballot, do you really think anyone would say "no"? Would we really have to break out his past performances and go over his record? Would anyone need to make a convincing argument on his behalf? That's the point I'm making. You may clearly believe that all three of those mares deserve to be in. That's fine because it's all subjective anyway. But if you can't get 90% of the people to agree on it with you, then I just don't believe they should be in there.
Well if you got your way the trip through the hall would be really short because there would be about 12 horses in there.

Those horses are all clearly hall of famers based upon the current standards. If you dont like the standards that is your problem. But to look at these horses records and say they dont deserve to be in basically means that after 2000 no other filly will ever get in because name a filly that has a record near theirs.

Using your example if Curlin was on the ballot versus Spectacular Bid he would have no chance to get voted in. Yet he clearly belongs based upon his accomplishments but when compared to perhaps the best horse in 30 years he has no chance. It would be like saying that John Stockton shouldnt be in the hall of Fame because he isnt as good as Micheal Jordan.
Reply With Quote
Reply



Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:11 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.