CD renames La Troienne (And now renames the Louisville La Troienne!)

[ArlJim78]

i prefer they don't change the names, now every time this Eight Belles race comes up I'm going to think "now what was this race called before?"
i like traditions. it also just seems too soon and in any case I would think Oaklawn would be a more appropriate place for an Eight Belles stakes race, and that doesn't mean we should have two Eight Belles stakes either.

[justindew]

Originally Posted by Danzig

go for wand established quite a reputation on the track, and both figured to be hall of famers before losing their lives. the same can't be said about eight belles.
the sole reason eight belles got a race is that she died, that is not the only reason go for wand and ruffian got a stakes race named for them. there's really no comparison.

Yes there is, if people are going to argue that part of the reason this is a dumb move by Churchill is because it will stir up bad memories.

I don't think this is a smart move OR a dumb move by CD. They are choosing to honor a filly who ran a fantastic race against males in the greatest race in the world, and then died on the track. They'll probably run it for a couple years and then change the name to something else.

[slotdirt]

Changing names is stupid. Just name a new race after Eight Belles and call it a day. Dumping the La Troienne name is just dumb, period.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by justindew

It seemed like part of your point (or someone else's point with which you agreed) was that it brings up the bad memories. Do you think when people watch the Ruffian and the Go For Wand they remember the horses' accomplishments or their deaths in front of huge TV audiences?

I agree that renaming of stakes races is kind of annoying, but I think criticism of CD for this move is criticism for the sake of criticism. And I am critical of CD often.

Are there any good memories concerning Eight Belles and CD? What exactly would be the reasoning behind renaming a race after Eight Belles except for some cheap PR? If you criticize CD for every move they make you wont be wrong often.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Echo Farm

recipes for hop were as plentiful as recipes for corn bread and coming by ingredients wasn’t hard. Caffeine could be boiled out of black coffee. Strychnine (also used by human athletes for speeding up muscle contractions) was a common rat poison. Even cocaine, heroin, and morphine were legal for anyone with a doctor’s prescription to buy from a drugstore, until prohibited by the Harrison Act of 1914—and could be bribed from pharmacists long after that. But using those mixtures effectively was a fine art. Prudent trainers experimented during morning workouts, discovering the right dope and dose for each horse.

DW,

I think what's being referenced in the earlier post's sweeping generalization, is the incident involving Johnny Loftus that grew out of Mad Hatter beating Sir Barton in November 1919 at Pimlico. Bedwell accused Loftus of taking money from Sam Hildreth to hold Sir Barton. Loftus, who had been aboard Sir Barton for his spring run through the Derby, Preakness, Withers and Belmont, never rode for Bedwell again.

A number of 'sporting journals' reported on the Bedwell-Loftus rift, and rather involved investigations took place publicly and privately that included August Belmont, The Jockey Club, Pinkertons, etc.. Loftus had also had a screaming match with Bedwell at Pimlico which included his claiming that Sir Barton didn't run the day in question because Bedwell hadn't given the horse his 'usual' hop.

Dorothy Ours talks about this incident in her wonderful Man o'War book.

[Echo Farm]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Dorothy Ours talks about this incident in her wonderful Man o'War book.

Yep, and I was neglectful in not providing a link to my statement:
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Man.../9780641912528

For those readers, interested, click on the Features tab. There is a fairly long exerpt from the book.

I think "back then" a lot of substances were used, we just didn't have the scrutiny, testing and recordkeeping that we have today.

[Scurlogue Champ]

Originally Posted by justindew

Yes there is, if people are going to argue that part of the reason this is a dumb move by Churchill is because it will stir up bad memories.

I don't think this is a smart move OR a dumb move by CD. They are choosing to honor a filly who ran a fantastic race against males in the greatest race in the world, and then died on the track. They'll probably run it for a couple years and then change the name to something else.

That's debatable.

I wonder if they'll name one after Chelokee?

[blackthroatedwind]

I figure The Justin Dew can't be far behind.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I figure The Justin Dew can't be far behind.

The Joel Cunningham is first.

[slotdirt]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I figure The Justin Dew can't be far behind.

I think that would cost you about $40 for your average Wednesday night $5k/4.5k claimer at Charles Town.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Kasept

What? Commander Ross and 'Hard Guy' Bedwell are "mentioned quite frequently by historical writers when they discuss doped-up horses"? Where would that be?

Several times in Dorothy Ours "Man-O-War" biography, in another Man-O-War bio I've read (will have to dig it up), and I saw it first in an old magazine article about the horse (Blood-Horse? can't recall.)

Edit: Aside from the incident you mentioned, Ours discusses Bedwell in conjunction with a series of drugging incidents - cocaine - at Latonia (which caused Bedwell to be ruled off - he was later reinstated)

And Edward Bowen discusses doping and Bedwell in "Masters of the Turf".

Ah, found the original: New York Times, August 25, 1910: Guy Bedwell denied reinstatement after disbarment in KY for horse appearing "crazed" ("suffering the effect of a drug" that Bedwell later said was cocaine) in paddock before race

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive...6E9C946196D6CF

(search NYT online archives, enter "Bedwell" or "Sir Barton" as search terms - lots of old racing articles available)

[Riot]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

I'd love to know what doping techniques were widely used and available in 1919.

Heroin (called "horse" for a reason), caffeine, amphetamines, cocaine ...

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

The Joel Cunningham is first.

Got a nice ring to it, doesn't it? Unfortunately, the Barack Obama will probably be first before either one of those.

[justindew]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I figure The Justin Dew can't be far behind.

I want to start referring to myself as The Justin Dew.

Can I steal that?

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by justindew

I want to start referring to myself as The Justin Dew.

Can I steal that?

Let's hope you perform better than THE Green Monkey.

The Crossfire sponsored by KYRIM

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by justindew

Yes there is, if people are going to argue that part of the reason this is a dumb move by Churchill is because it will stir up bad memories.

I don't think this is a smart move OR a dumb move by CD. They are choosing to honor a filly who ran a fantastic race against males in the greatest race in the world, and then died on the track. They'll probably run it for a couple years and then change the name to something else.

i'm not one arguing it will produce bad memories...but, i can hear it now- 'who was eight belles'? and the only thing of note anyone will be able to tell the person asking the question is that she finished second in the derby and then didn't make the gallop out. that's the ONLY thing of note about this horse. certainly it wasn't her win in the fantasy that got her this stakes named for her. in that respect, it is no comparison to ruffian or go for wand, who both did plenty on the track to warrant getting a race named in their honor.

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by Scurlogue Champ

That's debatable.

I wonder if they'll name one after Chelokee?

Only a matter of time. The irony would be if they did it for a race he won--the Barbaro. Unfortunately I'm not really able to muster up the energy to grumble as much about renaming the La Troienne--I'm still annoyed by the renaming of the Sir Barton. I know we can't get a group of people to agree on binding drug policies but surely it wouldn't kill them to agree not to rename races of a certain level without some sort of procedure. Like if they're in the Hall of Fame you can't rename it or something.

Now for another fun one. You can make an argument for naming a race after Mineshaft, sure, but one race he shouldn't have had renamed for him---the Whirlaway. Seriously, this is getting ridiculous. It's a matter of time before they rename the Secretariat or the Man O'War. (Sure it sounds like a dramatic load of crap but really, let enough time go by. Clearly there's a point where it's ok to forget about honoring TC winners like Sir Barton and Whirlaway).

[sumitas]

The LaTroienne should stand . I wonder why Saratoga has never had a stakes named The Somethingroyal ? The dam of Secretariat and Sir Gaylord had one career race ; at Saratoga , Aug. 2 , 1954, unplaced .

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by sumitas

The LaTroienne should stand . I wonder why Saratoga has never had a stakes named The Somethingroyal ? The dam of Secretariat and Sir Gaylord had one career race ; at Saratoga , Aug. 2 , 1954, unplaced .

Colonial Downs named a race for her. A restricted turf stakes for fillies and mares that it appears didn't happen in 2008 but 2000-2007 they have run it. Bright Gold won it twice and With Patience won it once. She was 3rd in the Gallorette. I don't pretend to understand the logic of their race naming any more than I do the Man O'War and Secretariat being on turf. I know Secretariat had a turf race but he was a TC winner on dirt for pete's sake.

As for the Whirlaway being renamed for Mineshaft, like a chump I didn't notice there were in fact other races named for him that are still named that (see the top of our own board this week) but as I said, give'em time. I mean there's no race named for Big Brown yet and boy will that be fun? "The Big Brown Stakes" sounds rather bathroom related but that won't stop anybody.