This One's for Phil goes nuts...

[SCUDSBROTHER]

It's not a big deal for cappers, but it would be a lot more fun to cap the horse(than to cap the trainer.) Uh, the people who are gunna have to change this are the ones that have the most to lose(other trainers and owners.) BTW, is Ramsey giving horses to Dutrow yet?

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

It's not a big deal for cappers, but it would be a lot more fun to cap the horse(than to cap the trainer.)

Not for all the TRAINER 'cappers out there.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

Not for all the TRAINER 'cappers out there.

Who isn't a trainer capper?

[VOL JACK]

Originally Posted by pweizer

Is that a serious question? You really lump Wolfson with the Dutrow's and Ness' s of the world? The man is a great trainer. He doesn't ever have 45% winners at a meet like the above and that says alot.

Paul

He did take a 6yo Meisques Approval, who was an Overnight Stake horse for BILL MOTT and turn him into a Breeders Cup Champ. He crushed a good group of horses that day. Had he faced the same group the year before, he wouldve been drowned.

[MISTERGEE]

long range problem is the owners who dont win the 30% of races with these guys will be knocked out of the game and for example in fla we will have a 3 horse stakes field with entries from maybe wesley ward, kirk ziadie and wolfson

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

Who isn't a trainer capper?

ME, for one.

I also don't get an erection whenever a new gelding is announced.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

ME, for one.

I also don't get an erection whenever a new gelding is announced.

You don't care that the trainer of a 2 year old maiden is Wesley Ward? You see that horse the same as one trained by Kathleen O'connell, or Phil Gleaves? Are you saying you just don't bet those races?

[cakes44]

I hate to answer for the fat man, but the guys I know that focus mostly on trip-handicapping don't bet too many races with a bunch of first-time starters.

[pweizer]

Originally Posted by VOL JACK

He did take a 6yo Meisques Approval, who was an Overnight Stake horse for BILL MOTT and turn him into a Breeders Cup Champ. He crushed a good group of horses that day. Had he faced the same group the year before, he wouldve been drowned.

Miesque's Approval had won several stakes that year leading up to the Breeder's Cup starting with the Sunshine Millions Turf in January. He won the Eclipse that year because of the whole campaign. It is not like that win came from no where.

Paul

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by pweizer

Miesque's Approval had won several stakes that year leading up to the Breeder's Cup starting with the Sunshine Millions Turf in January. He won the Eclipse that year because of the whole campaign. It is not like that win came from no where.

Paul

You're correct. Marty Wolfson did not just turn him around for a miracle win in the BC Mile. He also turned this 7YO claimer around for several wins in stakes. Just mentioning the BC doesn't do this particular miracle justice.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Blistering column by Andy Beyer in DRF about work of Dutrow vis a vis the performance of 'Phil'. Indicts other 'supertrainers' as well.. Important read.

Latest supertrainer feat raises suspicion
http://www.drf.com/drfNewsArticle.do...9&subs=0&arc=0

Thoroughbred racing has become less a test of horses than it is a competition among trainers. The most successful have been dubbed "supertrainers" because they achieve results almost without precedent. They compile winning percentages that dwarf the records of horsemen enshrined in the Hall of Fame. They acquire horses and transform them in ways that history's greatest trainers never dreamed of. Accordingly, bettors disregard the normal logic of handicapping when they evaluate horses saddled by Rick Dutrow in New York, Bruce Levine or Jason Servis in New Jersey, Marty Wolfson in south Florida, Kirk Ziadie and Jamie Ness at Tampa Bay Downs, Jeff Mullins in California and countless other miracle workers.

Help us Steve please! Are you Milk or are you Meat? If you are going to defend guys like Dutrow and Wolfson and not call them out then why would you suggest Beyer's article is an important read?

Can you agree with Beyer and not denounce the likes of the chemists mentioned?

[VOL JACK]

Originally Posted by pweizer

Miesque's Approval had won several stakes that year leading up to the Breeder's Cup starting with the Sunshine Millions Turf in January. He won the Eclipse that year because of the whole campaign. It is not like that win came from no where.

Paul

I never said the BC Mile win came from nowhere. He had a very solid campaign.
I was drawing the comparsion from the previous year. What the horse would have done in the same race 12 months earlier. ( before Marty Miracle)

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

You're correct. Marty Wolfson did not just turn him around for a miracle win in the BC Mile. He also turned this 7YO claimer around for several wins in stakes. Just mentioning the BC doesn't do this particular miracle justice.

One of my great disappointments as a fan is not having had the chance to see what Wolfson could have done with horses like Theatrical and Cigar. He could have straightened out the mistakes that Mott was making and really made them special.

[Linny]

Originally Posted by VOL JACK

He did take a 6yo Meisques Approval, who was an Overnight Stake horse for BILL MOTT and turn him into a Breeders Cup Champ. He crushed a good group of horses that day. Had he faced the same group the year before, he wouldve been drowned.

MA was a very good 3yo grasser but had tailed off by the time Wolfson got him. He was offered for a $50k tag in the late fall of the year prior to his Mile win. I think it was his only race for a tag. That hardly makes him a "claimer" in the usual sense. Like how when Charismatic won the Derby and was hailed as a "former claimer." That said, I do agree that Wolfson overall, belongs in this category.

[VOL JACK]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

One of my great disappointments as a fan is not having had the chance to see what Wolfson could have done with horses like Theatrical and Cigar. He could have straightened out the mistakes that Mott was making and really made them special.

He surely would have had Cigar running on dirt.
He could have won the Jackie Wackie, my personal fav Stake, like 5 straight years.

[Smooth Operator]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

He has written this basic article a few other times. I'm glad he writes them, and I hope he continues to do so until things change.

Me too



Such distrust has corroded the very foundation of the sport. Honest owners are reluctant to invest in the game when they believe they can't compete with the cheaters. Many bettors have lost enthusiasm because the art of handicapping has become an exercise in guessing who has the best "juice." The public at large is alienated when it suspects that drugs are tainting the sport's greatest events. This is what happened in last year's Triple Crown series, and it could happen again in 2009.


Yeah, you can put me in that group, Andy.


Seeing the re-breaking, pharmacologically-altered freak known as Curlin nose the likely 'roid-free Street Sense in that '07 Preakness was really the last straw for me. Been playing poker ever since.


Seeing the freak get absolutely trounced at the first-ever 'roid-free Breeders' Cup by those two young Euros will always be one of my fondest memories, though...

[parsixfarms]

Let's not forget the wonders that Wolfson has performed with Slewfoundmoney, another Live Oak horse who couldn't get out of her own way with Hall of Fame trainer Bill Mott.

[VOL JACK]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

Let's not forget the wonders that Wolfson has performed with Slewfoundmoney, another Live Oak horse who couldn't get out of her own way with Hall of Fame trainer Bill Mott.

Makes you wonder why Ms. Weber doesn't give Miracle Marty all her horses.
Why waste time and money with guys like Mott amd Malcolm Pierce.
Not to mention the biggest joke for a trainer in NY, John Kimmel.

[Crown@club]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Blistering column by Andy Beyer in DRF about work of Dutrow vis a vis the performance of 'Phil'. Indicts other 'supertrainers' as well.. Important read.

Latest supertrainer feat raises suspicion
http://www.drf.com/drfNewsArticle.do...9&subs=0&arc=0

Thoroughbred racing has become less a test of horses than it is a competition among trainers. The most successful have been dubbed "supertrainers" because they achieve results almost without precedent. They compile winning percentages that dwarf the records of horsemen enshrined in the Hall of Fame. They acquire horses and transform them in ways that history's greatest trainers never dreamed of. Accordingly, bettors disregard the normal logic of handicapping when they evaluate horses saddled by Rick Dutrow in New York, Bruce Levine or Jason Servis in New Jersey, Marty Wolfson in south Florida, Kirk Ziadie and Jamie Ness at Tampa Bay Downs, Jeff Mullins in California and countless other miracle workers.

What were the numbers on Ward's Notonthesamepage before his race on 1/3?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Crown@club

What were the numbers on Ward's Notonthesamepage before his race on 1/3?

They aren't on the same page. Interestingly, all of these fast 3yo's are all racing 6f at Gulfstream.