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  #41  
Old 08-06-2008, 01:41 PM
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Cannon Shell Cannon Shell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SniperSB23
Let me ask you this? How many males in the history of this sport would have gone 13 for 13 if allowed to run in the same 13 races as Personal Ensign? I think a lot more than the 22 horses I listed. If she were male would she be regarded as highly or is she so highly regarded because she was so great for a filly?
its hard to win 13 in a row regardless of competition
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  #42  
Old 08-06-2008, 01:41 PM
Antitrust32 Antitrust32 is offline
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Speaking of Sniper... do you have any fillies and mares on your list?? I dont know who Hindoo, Kingston, and Salvator are but I know in the 1900's and 2000's you did not include any filly or mare..

I think that is WAY off...
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  #43  
Old 08-06-2008, 01:41 PM
DogsUp DogsUp is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
Who has been elected with lowered expectations?
Since 2000 not one pitcher has had more than 9 complete games in in one season. Phil Niekro had over 20 complete games in 77-78-79. Fernando had 20 in 1986 and Tom Seaver has 21 in 1971. If you look at the pitchers (starting) in the Hall of Fame prior to 1990, they all have multiple years in which they had over 20 complete games multiple times. Tom Glavin who will be in the Hall has never had more than 9 complete games, Greg Maddox had 10 complete games twice in his career. So the expecation of number of complete games has decreased as a measure for inductiuon into the hall of fame.
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  #44  
Old 08-06-2008, 01:43 PM
SniperSB23 SniperSB23 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antitrust32
Speaking of Sniper... do you have any fillies and mares on your list?? I dont know who Hindoo, Kingston, and Salvator are but I know in the 1900's and 2000's you did not include any filly or mare..

I think that is WAY off...
No, cause like I said I'm not counting a horse that is regarded as great for a filly. Male horses are just plain faster than female horses on average so it isn't surprising that the best of all time are males.
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  #45  
Old 08-06-2008, 01:46 PM
Antitrust32 Antitrust32 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SniperSB23
She did and beat them in the Whitney. I just think that if you just treat them all as horses and ignore their sex she wouldn't be in that top tier.

I think it is ridiculous to ignore their sex. She would have to be on that list. also Ruffian, Lady's Secret and a few others... like maybe Regret?

The way you describe... Billy Jean King couldnt be an "elite" tennis player because she couldnt have beat Arthur Ashe or Pete Sampras??
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  #46  
Old 08-06-2008, 01:48 PM
SniperSB23 SniperSB23 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antitrust32
I think it is ridiculous to ignore their sex. She would have to be on that list. also Ruffian, Lady's Secret and a few others... like maybe Regret?

The way you describe... Billy Jean King couldnt be an "elite" tennis player because she couldnt have beat Arthur Ashe or Pete Sampras??
If I open it up to great for a filly then we get great for a sprinter and so on until someone is naming the fastest female turf sprinter of all time as a great. Look at the bloodhorse top 100, the highest female was 35th. This is the same concept.
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  #47  
Old 08-06-2008, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
Did someone really old write the article?
I think they are as old as you....is that really old?
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  #48  
Old 08-06-2008, 02:04 PM
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Ruffian ran track records the first two times she hit the track, never trailed at any point of any race, and averaged winning by 9 lengths. I don't care who she did it against, that is greatness. It's just my opinion, but I think she could have outrun all but a handful of horses that ever lived- male or female- at 5 to 8 furlongs.
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  #49  
Old 08-06-2008, 02:06 PM
alysheba4 alysheba4 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
I would be hard pressed not to include Cigar, Skip Away, Alysheba, Ferdinand, Manila, Lure, Miesque, Sunday Silence, Easy Goer, Ladys Secret, Inside information, John Henry, Ruffian, maybe All Along
......nice group of horses and a good memory c shell.
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  #50  
Old 08-06-2008, 02:17 PM
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kgar311 kgar311 is offline
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I think Personal Ensign was pretty good
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  #51  
Old 08-06-2008, 02:20 PM
DogsUp DogsUp is offline
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I think Zippy Chippy should be considered. 100-0-8-12 is freaking impressive. It is hard to win, but I think it is more hard not to win a race with 100 lifetime starts.
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  #52  
Old 08-06-2008, 02:25 PM
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philcski philcski is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DogsUp
I think Zippy Chippy should be considered. 100-0-8-12 is freaking impressive. It is hard to win, but I think it is more hard not to win a race with 100 lifetime starts.
There are a few at MNR working on topping his record
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  #53  
Old 08-06-2008, 02:28 PM
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10 pnt move up 10 pnt move up is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
Why? II would have hammered Azeri
crazy, she was very good, but so was Azeri. Take away the in the slop blow out win and her record was very good, but probably not even HOF material.

Azeri was champion mare 3 years running, while carrying weight, winning in 4 states and 8 tracks and two trainers (one of which was not very good).
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  #54  
Old 08-06-2008, 02:42 PM
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Indian Charlie Indian Charlie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SniperSB23
To me having 22 that fit the definition of elite of the elite is already too many, you have to draw the line somewhere. All those horses could certainly be called great without an argument but were they truly elites of the elite on the level that the other horses were?
Out of millions and millions and millions of horses, you think 22 is too many?

I like Cannon Shell's list except for maybe Cigar.
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  #55  
Old 08-06-2008, 02:50 PM
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Indian Charlie Indian Charlie is offline
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Manila is a no brainer.

I would also consider Majestic Prince. Nine wins and a second in ten starts, with that lone loss being as a result of an injury after which he never ran again.

He won some big races and was absolutely brilliant.

Twenty years ago, he always came up on these all time great lists but he's become a forgotten great.
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  #56  
Old 08-06-2008, 02:59 PM
SniperSB23 SniperSB23 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indian Charlie
Out of millions and millions and millions of horses, you think 22 is too many?

I like Cannon Shell's list except for maybe Cigar.
For the elite of the elite? Absolutely. In basketball history would you consider the 30th best player of all time to be the elite of the elite just cause there are millions who have played basketball? I wouldn't.
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  #57  
Old 08-06-2008, 03:16 PM
horseofcourse horseofcourse is offline
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Bold Ruler still needs to be on there on this forum too!
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  #58  
Old 08-06-2008, 03:53 PM
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Seabiscuit? Sunday Silence?
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  #59  
Old 08-06-2008, 03:58 PM
DogsUp DogsUp is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SniperSB23
For the elite of the elite? Absolutely. In basketball history would you consider the 30th best player of all time to be the elite of the elite just cause there are millions who have played basketball? I wouldn't.
Are you serious? Here are 50 players..you name the 21 that shouldnt be on the list.

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Nate Archibald

Paul Arizin

Charles Barkley

Rick Barry

Elgin Baylor

Dave Bing

Larry Bird

Wilt Chamberlain

Bob Cousy

Dave Cowens

Billy Cunningham

Dave DeBusschere

Clyde Drexler

Julius Erving

Patrick Ewing

Walt Frazier

George Gervin

Hal Greer

John Havlicek

Elvin Hayes

Magic Johnson

Sam Jones

Michael Jordan

Jerry Lucas

Karl Malone

Moses Malone

Pete Maravich

Kevin McHale

George Mikan

Earl Monroe

Hakeem Olajuwon

Shaquille O'Neal

Robert Parish

Bob Pettit

Scottie Pippen

Willis Reed

Oscar Robertson

David Robinson

Bill Russell

Dolph Schayes

Bill Sharman

John Stockton

Isiah Thomas

Nate Thurmond

Wes Unseld

Bill Walton

Jerry West

Lenny Wilkens

James Worthy
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  #60  
Old 08-06-2008, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DogsUp
Are you serious? Here are 50 players..you name the 21 that shouldnt be on the list.

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Nate Archibald

Paul Arizin

Charles Barkley

Rick Barry

Elgin Baylor

Dave Bing

Larry Bird

Wilt Chamberlain

Bob Cousy

Dave Cowens

Billy Cunningham

Dave DeBusschere

Clyde Drexler

Julius Erving

Patrick Ewing

Walt Frazier

George Gervin

Hal Greer

John Havlicek

Elvin Hayes

Magic Johnson

Sam Jones

Michael Jordan

Jerry Lucas

Karl Malone

Moses Malone

Pete Maravich

Kevin McHale

George Mikan

Earl Monroe

Hakeem Olajuwon

Shaquille O'Neal

Robert Parish

Bob Pettit

Scottie Pippen

Willis Reed

Oscar Robertson

David Robinson

Bill Russell

Dolph Schayes

Bill Sharman

John Stockton

Isiah Thomas

Nate Thurmond

Wes Unseld

Bill Walton

Jerry West

Lenny Wilkens

James Worthy
Archibald, Bing, Cowens, Cunningham, Gervin, Greer, Hayes, SJones, Lucas, Monroe, PArrish, Pippen, Sharman, Stockton, Thurmond, Walton,. There's a start.
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