Whose was/is the best?

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

No you can't ... not on what he did as a 2YO and 3YO.

Secretariat's achievements tower over those of Spectacular Bid at comparable ages.

Hey Bold, just wait for the write-up. Not trying to change your mind, but try for once to keep an open mind.

[JJP]

Where would Secretariat be on the list of all time greats w/out his Belmont? His Derby was tremendous, no doubt, and he showed his versatility on the grass at Woodbine. But 1 1/2 miles on the dirt is basically an irrelevant distance. The Belmont has historically had some very big victory margins, as some horses simply want no part of the distance. At 1 1/4 miles, Secretariat might've been favored over The Bid, but I think it wouldn't have been by much.

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Hey Bold, just wait for the write-up. Not trying to change your mind, but try for once to keep an open mind.

My mind is wide open ... and the record couldn't be clearer ...

... as a 2YO and 3YO Secretariat was far better than Spectacular Bid.

In 1980 ... as a 4YO ... Spectacular Bid had one of the most ... spectacular ... years any American race horse has ever had.

He was without question one of the ten best American race horses of the 20th century. The Blood-Horse panel put him at #10 ... I think that was too low ... he was definitely in the top 7 ... possibly in the top 5.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

My mind is wide open ... and the record couldn't be clearer ...

... as a 2YO and 3YO Secretariat was far better than Spectacular Bid.

In 1980 ... as a 4YO ... Spectacular Bid had one of the most ... spectacular ... years any American race horse has ever had.

He was without question one of the ten best American race horses of the 20th century. The Blood-Horse panel put him at #10 ... I think that was too low ... he was definitely in the top 7 ... possibly in the top 5.

Actually the facts point out the SB definitely had the better two year old season.

SB...9 starts, 7 wins, 1 second, two new track records.

Secretariat...9 starts, 7 wins, 1 second, no new records.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

Actually the facts point out the SB definitely had the better two year old season.

SB...9 starts, 7 wins, 1 second, two new track records.

Secretariat...9 starts, 7 wins, 1 second, no new records.

Of course you leave out Secretariat's dq.....he was clearly best in the Champaign and while justified, the dq certainly makes a difference record-wise. Track records are nice, but hardly the true measure of a horse. Secretariat's Belmont...well, look at his time for 10 furlongs that day if you question the Belmont distance, not to mention folks who kept the watch on him state clearly that he broke the existing world record for 13 furlongs before he was finally able to be pulled up! At any distance, Secretariat's Belmont was the greatest single performance of the 20th century and probably in racing history!! I love the Bid but make no mistake, he was no Secretariat...only Kincsem can claim to breathe that rare air!

Originally Posted by JJP

Where would Secretariat be on the list of all time greats w/out his Belmont? His Derby was tremendous, no doubt, and he showed his versatility on the grass at Woodbine. But 1 1/2 miles on the dirt is basically an irrelevant distance. The Belmont has historically had some very big victory margins, as some horses simply want no part of the distance. At 1 1/4 miles, Secretariat might've been favored over The Bid, but I think it wouldn't have been by much.

You're completely overlooking the actual record. Spectacular Bid's accomplishments as a 3YO were nowhere near those of Secretariat.

Secretariat smashed all three track records in winning the Triple Crown ... two of those track records still stand today ... 33 years later ... and the other is still a stakes record.

Secretariat also set the world record for 9f ... broke a track record for 12f on turf ... and equalled a track record for 8f in early April of his 3YO year.

Spectacular Bid's only track record as a 3YO came at an oddball distance at Delaware Park. And if winning the Belmont Stakes by a large margin were so easy ... how come Spectacular Bid couldn't do it?

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

You're completely overlooking the actual record. Spectacular Bid's accomplishments as a 3YO were nowhere near those of Secretariat.

Secretariat smashed all three track records in winning the Triple Crown ... two of those track records still stand today ... 33 years later ... and the other is still a stakes record.

Secretariat also set the world record for 9f ... broke a track record for 12f on turf ... and equalled a track record for 8f in early April of his 3YO year.

Spectacular Bid's only track record as a 3YO came at an oddball distance at Delaware Park. And if winning the Belmont Stakes by a large margin were so easy ... how come Spectacular Bid couldn't do it?

Of course you are referring to his ACTUAL time in the Preakness, not the Official time still used despite proof that said OFFICIAL time was incorrect due to timer malfunction!

[JJP]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

You're completely overlooking the actual record. Spectacular Bid's accomplishments as a 3YO were nowhere near those of Secretariat.

Secretariat smashed all three track records in winning the Triple Crown ... two of those track records still stand today ... 33 years later ... and the other is still a stakes record.

Secretariat also set the world record for 9f ... broke a track record for 12f on turf ... and equalled a track record for 8f in early April of his 3YO year.

Spectacular Bid's only track record as a 3YO came at an oddball distance at Delaware Park. And if winning the Belmont Stakes by a large margin were so easy ... how come Spectacular Bid couldn't do it?

Nobody is saying winning the Belmont by a large margin was easy. Its more a matter of how relevant is the distance. We don't race at 12 furlongs on the dirt, other than maybe a few starter allowance races at small tracks. I wouldn't consider Jazil to be one of the top three 3YOs this year just because he won the Belmont.

What "oddball" distance was the Bid's record at when he was at Delaware? If its between 6f and 1 1/4 miles, I say its not an oddball distance.

Nobody is saying Secretariat wasn't great. Just maybe the gap between him and Spectacular Bid isn't as great as many believe.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Of course you leave out Secretariat's dq.....he was clearly best in the Champaign and while justified, the dq certainly makes a difference record-wise. Track records are nice, but hardly the true measure of a horse. Secretariat's Belmont...well, look at his time for 10 furlongs that day if you question the Belmont distance, not to mention folks who kept the watch on him state clearly that he broke the existing world record for 13 furlongs before he was finally able to be pulled up! At any distance, Secretariat's Belmont was the greatest single performance of the 20th century and probably in racing history!! I love the Bid but make no mistake, he was no Secretariat...only Kincsem can claim to breathe that rare air!

I was just stating that the Bid had a better two year old season than Secretariat did. And Secretariat should have been dq that day in the Champagne. He didn't set any track records in his two year old season while SB did at 5 1/2 furlongs and 1 and 1/16 mile.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

I was just stating that the Bid had a better two year old season than Secretariat did. And Secretariat should have been dq that day in the Champagne. He didn't set any track records in his two year old season while SB did at 5 1/2 furlongs and 1 and 1/16 mile.

Besides if you play the using the logic of the most wins game, SB actually had a better three year old season than Secretariat did.

Spectacular Bid...12 starts, 10 wins

Secretariat...12 starts, 9 wins

While Spectacular Bid did a better two year old year than Secretariat did, I will concede that Secretariat had the better three year old year although SB also set several track records and won more races in the same number of starts.

Also, SB didn't win the only start at 12 furlongs that he ever had because he was sore. No horse can win over 12 furlongs if they had a safety pin stuck in their hoof the night before. Not even Secretariat.

Also BB, SB actually set a new track record in the Meadowlands Cup at the end of his three year old season too.

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

Actually the facts point out the SB definitely had the better two year old season.

SB...9 starts, 7 wins, 1 second, two new track records.

Secretariat...9 starts, 7 wins, 1 second, no new records.

You're somewhat distorting the record ...

Spectacular Bid set one track record ... and equalled another .. as a 2YO.

Secretariat finished first in 8 of 9 starts at 2 ... and had one disqualification which was unrelated to his being the best horse in the race.

Their racing styles as 2YOS were completely different ... Spectacular Bid blazing along on the front ... Secretariat loping along at the rear.

Spectacular Bid was one of a handful of truly great race horses in America in the 20th century. Isn't that more than enough? Why go overboard and try to compare him to the two horses who completely rewrote the record books ... and set new standards for the ages ... Man O' War and Secretariat?

[dr. fager]

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

Also, SB didn't win the only start at 12 furlongs that he ever had because he was sore. No horse can win over 12 furlongs if they had a safety pin stuck in their hoof the night before. Not even Secretariat.

One of the greatest conspiricies ever, didn't the great Buddy Delp own a camera? If I was going to try to pull that one off, I'd have a photo...heck that was in the hayday of polaroids....

Right up there with the crap Jose Santos had a buzzer on Funny Cide.

[1st_Saturday_in_May]

Track records have lost all meaning to me after I saw Greater Good just set one at Churchill Downs.

Originally Posted by JJP

Nobody is saying winning the Belmont by a large margin was easy. Its more a matter of how relevant is the distance. We don't race at 12 furlongs on the dirt, other than maybe a few starter allowance races at small tracks.

In the 1970's ... 12f was considered as important ... or perhaps more important ... than 10f.

Both Secretariat and Spectacular Bid ran the distances which were carded ... and Secretariat ran them much better.

Originally Posted by JJP

What "oddball" distance was the Bid's record at when he was at Delaware? If its between 6f and 1 1/4 miles, I say its not an oddball distance.

8.5f is an oddball distance ... there were no graded stakes races for 3YOS&UP at that distance in the 1970's ... hence track records at that distance could only have been set in ungraded stakes or allowance races ... or by 2YOS.

Does that answer your concerns?

I think it is really hard to compare horses from era to era. The game has changed so much it isnt funny. But it is always good to know the history of the sport. I really think there are too many stakes races, too much important but on a Grade I win and too much importance but in the BC Races. Breeding for speed is the one thing that has made this sport so mundane in the past years. I love how you get a 14 horse field in the Smile Handicap worth $500k and you get a 6 horse field for the Stephen Foster for $750k.

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

Also, SB didn't win the only start at 12 furlongs that he ever had because he was sore. No horse can win over 12 furlongs if they had a safety pin stuck in their hoof the night before. Not even Secretariat.

Also BB, SB actually set a new track record in the Meadowlands Cup at the end of his three year old season too.

Spectacular Bid also raced at 12f in the 1979 Jockey Club Gold Cup ... another race which he lost. There were no reports of wandering safety pins that day.

In 1979 the Meadowlands was a brand new track ... and new track records were set virtually every night. The 10f record set by Spectacular Bid was at a distance which had only been run once before in the track's history. That's another "oddball" circumstance.

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

I was just stating that the Bid had a better two year old season than Secretariat did. And Secretariat should have been dq that day in the Champagne. He didn't set any track records in his two year old season while SB did at 5 1/2 furlongs and 1 and 1/16 mile.

Spectacular Bid equalled the track record for 5.5f ... check it out.

Originally Posted by dr.fager

One of the greatest conspiricies ever, didn't the great Buddy Delp own a camera? If I was going to try to pull that one off, I'd have a photo...heck that was in the hayday of polaroids....

Right up there with the crap Jose Santos had a buzzer on Funny Cide.

Buddy Delp was/is a great trainer.

He did a spectacular job with Spectacular Bid. He did a great job training one of the best race horses anyone has ever seen ... but he only looks foolish with that nonsensical safety pin story.

Originally Posted by eurobounce

I think it is really hard to compare horses from era to era. The game has changed so much it isnt funny. But it is always good to know the history of the sport. I really think there are too many stakes races, too much important but on a Grade I win and too much importance but in the BC Races. Breeding for speed is the one thing that has made this sport so mundane in the past years. I love how you get a 14 horse field in the Smile Handicap worth $500k and you get a 6 horse field for the Stephen Foster for $750k.

Very good observation.