Hollywood Gold Cup

[Buffymommy]

Originally Posted by 2Hot4TV

He's got to do something outside of California? The horse has won 2 Million dollar races, a 750,000 and 2 other graded races this year. I don't think he really needs to leave town. I still say if he is so weak why would the good horses race in the rast of the country for less?

It is a bias thing. Don't bother arguing. Everyone will jump on you with the "if a horse can't win outside of Cali, they are not great". Don't bother with an argument.

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by 2Hot4TV

He's got to do something outside of California? The horse has won 2 Million dollar races, a 750,000 and 2 other graded races this year. I don't think he really needs to leave town. I still say if he is so weak why would the good horses race in the rast of the country for less?

I'm not knocking his ability, quite the opposite. But the breeders' cup (and lets face it unless he performs well there he can forget HOY) isn't in California, and the trainer admits the horse does not ship well, and cannot settle outside of his familiar environment...that is a serious problem because it makes it very difficult to showcase his talent and ability. And california tracks are different than east coast tracks so there will always be individauls who will call him a specialist...not that he is or isn't. If he traveled well then he could answer that question--that is all I am trying to say.

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by Buffymommy

It is a bias thing. Don't bother arguing. Everyone will jump on you with the "if a horse can't win outside of Cali, they are not great". Don't bother with an argument.

Buffy i am not saying he's not great. I am saying he doesn't ship well and therefore doesn't perfrom well outside Cali. therefore he leaves himself open to being labled a specialist.
Much in the same way that my horse performs beautifully at home and freaks out at a show--

[Buffymommy]

Originally Posted by paisjpq

Buffy i am not saying he's not great. I am saying he doesn't ship well and therefore doesn't perfrom well outside Cali. therefore he leaves himself open to being labled a specialist.

I didn't mean you in particular. Just in general for the board. Just warning him not to open a can of worms.

[2Hot4TV]

Originally Posted by Buffymommy

I didn't mean you in particular. Just in general for the board. Just warning him not to open a can of worms.

Buffy my point is that how much does HOY pay? The horse is a gelding and when you are in the claiming game it is to win money and go to the winners circle. Why run Lava Man into the ground to prove that he can ship and win? The grass really is not greener and the money is the same.

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by 2Hot4TV

Buffy my point is that how much does HOY pay? The horse is a gelding and when you are in the claiming game it is to win money and go to the winners circle. Why run Lava Man into the ground to prove that he can ship and win? The grass really is not greener and the money is the same.

because std racing probably wants it and O'neill probably wants it and HOY doesn't pay but the BCC sure does.

[Buffymommy]

Originally Posted by paisjpq

because std racing probably wants it and O'neill probably wants it and HOY doesn't pay but the BCC sure does.

The BCC is what they want not the HOY. Although as an owner, it would be nice to own a HOY but I think I would rather have a BC Classic winner. The pay is better.

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by Buffymommy

The BCC is what they want not the HOY. Although as an owner, it would be nice to own a HOY but I think I would rather have a BC Classic winner. The pay is better.

that's actaully what I meant Buffy...just wasn't clear. However in this day and age it's difficult to get one without the other.

[Buffymommy]

Originally Posted by paisjpq

that's actaully what I meant Buffy...just wasn't clear. However in this day and age it's difficult to get one without the other.

sooo true. Kinda sad isn't it? Horse can win all year but lose the BCC and still lose HOY awards. But that's racing.

[2Hot4TV]

Originally Posted by paisjpq

because std racing probably wants it and O'neill probably wants it and HOY doesn't pay but the BCC sure does.

Lava Man was pointed towards the Sunshine Million with a possible Santa Anita handicap win and they got that. It is almost imposible to sweep all the big races nation wide. There are other horses that are pointing towards that race and will have a form cycle advantage over any horse that has raced all year long. They should turn him out for freshing.

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by 2Hot4TV

Lava Man was pointed towards the Sunshine Million with a possible Santa Anita handicap win and they got that. It is almost imposible to sweep all the big races nation wide. There are other horses that are pointing towards that race and will have a form cycle advantage over any horse that has raced all year long. They should turn him out for freshing.

I agree with you. But think that it is unlikely that they will pass up the opportunity to go if the horse is healthy.

[2Hot4TV]

The horse is telling them that it's time for a rest.

GOLD CUP WINNER LAVA MAN RETURNS TIRED BUT SOUND

Lava Man, who eked out a nose victory in a gutsy defense of his Hollywood Gold Cup crown Saturday, returned to his stall in the Doug O'Neill stable weary but healthy.

"He's tired but his legs were tight," said O'Neill Sunday. "He left some grain. He put his body down yesterday. He's not nearly as funky as he was yesterday."

After nearly stumbling to his knees at the start, Lava Man managed to recover and go on to a nose victory over longshot Ace Blue in the $750,000 Grade I test and join Native Diver as the only horse to win the prestigious race more than once in its 67-year history.

Native Diver won it three times in a row from 1965-67 and is buried under a monument in the Hollywood Park paddock. O'Neill, who was born one year after the legendary "Black Horse's" triple, hopes that Lava Man will be in position to duplicate that three-peat next July.

O'Neill, who is three-for-three in the Gold Cup after also winning in 2002 with Sky Jack, gave special credit to Noe Garcia, the groom during all three of those victories.

"He's a real quiet guy who has been with me four or five years," said O'Neill. "He's always the first to work and the last to leave."

O'Neill said he and his family celebrated the victory with dinner at an Islands restaurant. He said that if Lava Man, unbeaten in five starts this year, bounces back, he will make his next start in the $1-million Pacific Classic at Del Mar on Aug. 20. That race could also attract runners-up Ace Blue, Super Frolic and Magnum.

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by 2Hot4TV

The horse is telling them that it's time for a rest.

GOLD CUP WINNER LAVA MAN RETURNS TIRED BUT SOUND

Lava Man, who eked out a nose victory in a gutsy defense of his Hollywood Gold Cup crown Saturday, returned to his stall in the Doug O'Neill stable weary but healthy.

"He's tired but his legs were tight," said O'Neill Sunday. "He left some grain. He put his body down yesterday. He's not nearly as funky as he was yesterday."

After nearly stumbling to his knees at the start, Lava Man managed to recover and go on to a nose victory over longshot Ace Blue in the $750,000 Grade I test and join Native Diver as the only horse to win the prestigious race more than once in its 67-year history.

Native Diver won it three times in a row from 1965-67 and is buried under a monument in the Hollywood Park paddock. O'Neill, who was born one year after the legendary "Black Horse's" triple, hopes that Lava Man will be in position to duplicate that three-peat next July.

O'Neill, who is three-for-three in the Gold Cup after also winning in 2002 with Sky Jack, gave special credit to Noe Garcia, the groom during all three of those victories.

"He's a real quiet guy who has been with me four or five years," said O'Neill. "He's always the first to work and the last to leave."

O'Neill said he and his family celebrated the victory with dinner at an Islands restaurant. He said that if Lava Man, unbeaten in five starts this year, bounces back, he will make his next start in the $1-million Pacific Classic at Del Mar on Aug. 20. That race could also attract runners-up Ace Blue, Super Frolic and Magnum.

he might be, but it doesn't look like they are listening "...next start in the 1-million pacific classic..."

[Buffymommy]

I say give him one more prep in mid-late September then to the BCC. Then give him off for a few months. They need to talk to Drifty's connections.

[2Hot4TV]

Originally Posted by Buffymommy

I say give him one more prep in mid-late September then to the BCC. Then give him off for a few months. They need to talk to Drifty's connections.

Buffy, You just can't ride -um and put them away all wet. You can treat a man that way , but not your horse.

[Buffymommy]

Originally Posted by 2Hot4TV

Buffy, You just can't ride -um and put them away all wet. You can treat a man that way , but not your horse.

Huh? All I said was they should do one more prep then the Classic. Not two preps and the Classic. What does that have to do with riding and putting them up wet?

Not that my husband minds that.....

Ta heck with the horse of the year crud. Looked at the race again. That was as gallant a win as you will see this year or any year. Take the race for what it was. Lava Man had an absolutely horrible run and had every right to lose and he won. How the heck did the horse win. This is one of the true grit performances that you just dont get to see much anymore. The more I look at the replay, the more I am astounded with the absolute determination of this horse. He is a wonderful animal.

I personally would try and keep this one out of really tough situations, he will die for you. Make sure he is totally fit and running on a track and at a distance he can handle Anything less is not fair to the animal.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by paisjpq

I'm not knocking his ability, quite the opposite. But the breeders' cup (and lets face it unless he performs well there he can forget HOY) isn't in California, and the trainer admits the horse does not ship well, and cannot settle outside of his familiar environment...that is a serious problem because it makes it very difficult to showcase his talent and ability. And california tracks are different than east coast tracks so there will always be individauls who will call him a specialist...not that he is or isn't. If he traveled well then he could answer that question--that is all I am trying to say.

Paisjpq, I might agree with you except for the fact that Lava Man has done so well on the grass. You can hardly call a horse a one-track specialist if he is dominating over two totally different surfaces. Moving back and forth between dirt and grass is way more different than moving between different dirts. IMO, Lava Man has already passed all the versatility questions. Shipping successfully isn't nearly as impressive as winning Grade I's on both dirt and grass.

I'm not even sure Lava Man has to go to the BCC to win HOY. They could take the Mineshaft route and bypass it entirely. (they could find SOMETHING that needs a couple of months of rest to heal.) If Lava Man adds the Pacific Classic to his undefeated year and then goes to the sidelines, it would not be easy for another horse to win HOY. I can't imagine any horse besides Bernardini, Flower Alley, Invasor and perhaps Jazil having a shot. And for any of those horses to have a chance, he would have to win everything from here out including the BCC.

--Dunbar

[Slewbopper]

I would send him to Kentucky right now. Let him settle in for two months, run him in a 1 1/8 grass or dirt race in mid to late Sept and then have him fresh for the BCC.

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

Paisjpq, I might agree with you except for the fact that Lava Man has done so well on the grass. You can hardly call a horse a one-track specialist if he is dominating over two totally different surfaces. Moving back and forth between dirt and grass is way more different than moving between different dirts. IMO, Lava Man has already passed all the versatility questions. Shipping successfully isn't nearly as impressive as winning Grade I's on both dirt and grass.

I'm not even sure Lava Man has to go to the BCC to win HOY. They could take the Mineshaft route and bypass it entirely. (they could find SOMETHING that needs a couple of months of rest to heal.) If Lava Man adds the Pacific Classic to his undefeated year and then goes to the sidelines, it would not be easy for another horse to win HOY. I can't imagine any horse besides Bernardini, Flower Alley, Invasor and perhaps Jazil having a shot. And for any of those horses to have a chance, he would have to win everything from here out including the BCC.

--Dunbar

you make a good point about the grass; and let me restate that I am not knocking Lava Man at all, I admire what he has done. And I understand horses that will not ship and perform well--I own one, and trust me nothing is more frustrating.
Here's the thing, Mineshaft had the power and prestiege of Lane's End/Will Farish under him (while that shouldn't count I think we are not niaive enough to say that it doesn't). Doug O'Neill is a smaller trainer (Iknow he leads Cali.) and STD is a smaller racing stable. I know I'm going to get slammed for the next one--Doug O'Neill has had medication positives. Whether he has done anything wrong or not that cloud exists over his runners.
This game, like the game of life is usually about what have you done for me right now. If he wins the next race and goes to the farm, I think they will have made the right decision fo the horse, but I don't think that he will have HOY in the bag by a long shot.
Invasor, has one 7 of 8 so far lifetime and continues to excell. Bernardini is an incredible horse who may do big things this fall. Flower Alley has big connections and a strong resume, plus he is just getting into his campaign. If he wins the races TP has mapped out for him he's right there.
I repectfully disagree that Lava Man can skip the BCC. It is really the only time all year the great horses compete directly with one another and that is why the outcome has so much bearing on the awards.