Strong Contender

Originally Posted by Sweetness

Never said he was great but was making the point that he was instumental in Lukas's success, ask D. Wayne. I think Shug has underachieved, because he is blessed year in and year out with the best flesh on the planet.

Yeah hes underachieved with 8 champs, all those grade ones and Breeders Cup wins. That is just one of the most foolish comments I have ever heard, but I guess everyone has the right to a bad opinion.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Shug has had remarkable results.

If you are going to continue to insist that Dallas Stewart is " among the best " I am taking my ball and going home. Just say you were overzealous and get it over with.

I like Kiaran, he is a great guy, and he does a very good job. Among the best? I don't even think he would agree with that. But he certainly gets the job done and I can imagine anyone would be more than happy if he was their trainer.

Okay so who are among the best?

Any of you guys who want a good laugh about this argument need to go to www.nyra.com and click on nyra publications, then on bios. When you click on Stewart and then click on champions he has trained the page is blank. The you click on Grade one wins and Nyra stakes wins and 3 horses pop up.
YOu click on Shugs and when you click on champs you get 8, and then when you click on grade one wins and NYra stakes winners, the page is so long that pops up that you actually have to scroll long and hard just to read them all. Its amazing, absolutely incredible.

Originally Posted by oracle80

Yeah hes underachieved with 8 champs, all those grade ones and Breeders Cup wins. That is just one of the most foolish comments I have ever heard, but I guess everyone has the right to a bad opinion.

Has he not been given the finest horse flesh year in and year out? I personally like Shug, but he should be training champs.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Sweetness

Never said he was great but was making the point that he was instumental in Lukas's success, ask D. Wayne. I think Shug has underachieved, because he is blessed year in and year out with the best flesh on the planet.

Honestly, you have now eclipsed your contention that Dallas Stewart is " among the best " with this nonsensical comment about the horses Shug gets annually. He gets next to NO horses bought at Private Auction. The great racemares from over ten years ago ( yes, believe it or not it's been ten years ) have been pretty unproductive producers.

The job he did with Easy Goer, who had an ankle that would have kept many trainers from getting him to the races, was spectacular. He won the Gotham, Wood, ran in all three TC races, won the Whitney, Travers, Woodward and JCGC before finishing second in the BC Classic. That is a campaign that is unheard of today. Yeah, he was a great horse, but Shug's job with him may be unparalleled in recent training times.

Personal Ensign broke down as a 2YO, and raced with screws in her leg, yet Shug managed and maintained her through two more undefeated seasons. Compared to today's superstar trainers, who seem to have flash in the pan after flash in the pan, this was another tremendous job.

Hell, even resurecting Storm Flag Flying into a very nice 4YO campaign two years ago was a tremendous job. Unlike so many other trainers, Shug actually brought her back from the dead. Most, these days, have a similar pattern of quick explosion followed by quicker disintegration....and NO resurrection.

Yes, Shug has gotten some very well bred horses in the past, and surely he couldn't have posted the AMAZING results he has without them, but he has absolutely delivered.

Originally Posted by Sweetness

Okay so who are among the best?

Well I dunno but if you think a guy who has trained 8 champs and is 2nd lifetime in Breeders Cup wins and who has won all those grade one races is an "underachiever" then I don't think that you and anyone else are going to share a whole lot of common ground on this topic. As far as I am concerned all of your credibility went straight out the window with that comment on one of the greatest who ever trained a horse being an underachiever. How many guys in histpry do you figure their are who have a better resume than Shug? Maybe like 10 guys(if that) in the history of the millions of guys who have tried their hand at this game?

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Honestly, you have now eclipsed your contention that Dallas Stewart is " among the best " with this nonsensical comment about the horses Shug gets annually. He gets next to NO horses bought at Private Auction. The great racemares from over ten years ago ( yes, believe it or not it's been ten years ) have been pretty unproductive producers.

The job he did with Easy Goer, who had an ankle that would have kept many trainers from getting him to the races, was spectacular. He won the Gotham, Wood, ran in all three TC races, won the Whitney, Travers, Woodward and JCGC before finishing second in the BC Classic. That is a campaign that is unheard of today. Yeah, he was a great horse, but Shug's job with him may be unparalleled in recent training times.

Personal Ensign broke down as a 2YO, and raced with screws in her leg, yet Shug managed and maintained her through two more undefeated seasons. Compared to today's superstar trainers, who seem to have flash in the pan after flash in the pan, this was another tremendous job.

Hell, even resurecting Storm Flag Flying into a very nice 4YO campaign two years ago was a tremendous job. Unlike so many other trainers, Shug actually brought her back from the dead. Most, these days, have a similar pattern of quick explosion followed by quicker disintegration....and NO resurrection.

Yes, Shug has gotten some very well bred horses in the past, and surely he couldn't have posted the AMAZING results he has without them, but he has absolutely delivered.

How could anyone who knows anything about this game attempt to argue this?

Originally Posted by oracle80

How could anyone who knows anything about this game attempt to argue this?

I know Shug, and his 10% this year, with nothing but blue bloods is amazing. Hasd any single trainer burned more betting monet than Shug?

[blackthroatedwind]

Well, I guess it's a " what have you done for me lately " world we live in.

Oh, I forgot, Shug won the BC Distaff last year.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Sweetness

I know Shug, and his 10% this year, with nothing but blue bloods is amazing. Hasd any single trainer burned more betting monet than Shug?

Actually his percentage is 13%. Below par for him, I admit it, but it's getting better. I guess that record compiled in under 100 starts, eclipses a virtually unparalleled lifetime of acheivement.

You gotta stop. Seriously.

Originally Posted by Hoisttheflag

Exactly. Pletcher is a very good trainer, might be great one day, but enough with the praise for a guy who wins with the top horse flesh. Win a classic too. Any classic.

Since Shug is so good, how many classics since 1989? Oh and you make money betting Shug? Impossible.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Actually his percentage is 13%. Below par for him, I admit it, but it's getting better. I guess that record compiled in under 100 starts, eclipses a virtually unparalleled lifetime of acheivement.

You gotta stop. Seriously.

he also took a filly who had screws in her leg and kept her undefeated over a 3 year campaign in which:
she won at Aqueduct, belmont, CD, Monmouth, and saratoga
she won in the slop and on dry tracks
she beat the boys in a grade one
she won going 7f, one mile, one mile and 70 yards, one mile and an eigth, and one mile and a quarter
she never lost, ever

The finest training job on a single horse in our lifetimes and one that is unlikely to ever be surpassed. Give me some of that underachievment anyday.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Sweetness

Since Shug is so good, how many classics since 1989? Oh and you make money betting Shug? Impossible.

Actually three...not bad...but who's counting.

Originally Posted by oracle80

he also took a filly who had screws in her leg and kept her undefeated over a 3 year campaign in which:
she won at Aqueduct, belmont, CD, Monmouth, and saratoga
she won in the slop and on dry tracks
she beat the boys in a grade one
she won going 7f, one mile, one mile and 70 yards, one mile and an eigth, and one mile and a quarter
she never lost, ever

The finest training job on a single horse in our lifetimes and one that is unlikely to ever be surpassed. Give me some of that underachievment anyday.

Yeah it was an amazing training job 2 decades ago. Emphasis on the 2 decades ago part.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Actually three...not bad...but who's counting.

Don't forget those Travers either. They arent too shabby.

[blackthroatedwind]

Actually, Personal Ensign never ran at Aqueduct.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Actually his percentage is 13%. Below par for him, I admit it, but it's getting better. I guess that record compiled in under 100 starts, eclipses a virtually unparalleled lifetime of acheivement.

You gotta stop. Seriously.

Why should he stop? The guy's a clairvoyant (knows what Baffert is thinking at all times), a genius (proclaimed TMB a bad bet days after the race) and no doubt, if hard pressed, can, with little effort, pull an entire room of furniture out of his ass.

Sweetness is my newest hero.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Actually, Personal Ensign never ran at Aqueduct.

Did she not win the rare Perfume there? I dont have her pp's in front of me but I thought at age three that she had a fall campaign and raced there. If not I regret the inaccuracy.

[blackthroatedwind]

The Rare Perfume was at Belmont.....eight days before she won the Beldame.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

The Rare Perfume was at Belmont.....eight days before she won the Beldame.

Ok my mistake then. I loved that Beldame, did she not beat Clabber Girl?