Overrated Jockeys

Originally Posted by Sweetness

I couldn't agree more with Albarado, now he GETS horses beat. I'll agree with Guidry, Bridgmohan, Nakatani, Emigh (who I think is very underrated), but I can't stand the Mig. I just think he is spotty. like today he looked great but, a lot of the times he is average. For my money Javier Castallano is great. In my opinion the best turf rider out there, and I know I may be stretching a bit, but he consistently finishes, and is usually a fair price. Aside from the obvious Johnny V., Prado and Solis I think Castellano is the new wave of star jocks, along with my favorite frenchman Laparoux.

Mig "spotty"??

The guy has ridden on the biggest premire circuit in the world for the last 25 years. A "spotty" rider does not do that.

And have you seen some of the sh!t the mig has had to put up with. He's got more metal in him than the Terminator. And on top of that hes been on some pretty bad horses as of late, but I am sure that he will still be in the top 8 at saratoga. He does it almost every year.

So do tell me how he is a "spotty" rider.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Sweetness

It just seems to me that you are being real crucial for no good reason, other than you lost. You're not going to hit them all, nobody does. No one is bailing anyone out, and is TMB that much more of a talent than Songster. I have them 1-1 head to head, so I guess we'll see. I also didn't see baffert being too critical about the ride, he was critical of the situation, and the racing luck. Like everyone else here has said. You seem to be the only one thinking Gomez could have done more. Is it really that far fetched to think Songster would have won regardless? Baffert was obviously telling everyone something when he was telling anyone that would listen that he was unhappy with the 1 hole.

Ain't brain surgery.The guy blew the ride,and people are lickin' nut (as usual.)For every bad ride that has ever been given,there is a guy out there ready to say it wasn't a bad ride.Yes, you are bailing him out.He won with Behaving Badly from the 1 hole,and should have won with Bling from the 1 hole.He was the favorite because he was the best horse(even with this career- ending 1 hole.).Yes,he would easily have beaten Songster with any ride at all.

Originally Posted by belmont park is the best

Mig "spotty"??

The guy has ridden on the biggest premire circuit in the world for the last 25 years. A "spotty" rider does not do that.

And have you seen some of the sh!t the mig has had to put up with. He's got more metal in him than the Terminator. And on top of that hes been on some pretty bad horses as of late, but I am sure that he will still be in the top 8 at saratoga. He does it almost every year.

So do tell me how he is a "spotty" rider.

Yeah I know Mig's a warrior and all, and he's been better as of late. But he's been a fringe player on the circuit for those 25 years. He has never really stepped up to the big time, winning stake races consistently, and that is why I say he is spotty. I'm going to disagree with the top 8 this year, way too tough a colony.

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

Ain't brain surgery.The guy blew the ride,and people are lickin' nut (as usual.)For every bad ride that has ever been given,there is a guy out there ready to say it wasn't a bad ride.Yes, you are bailing him out.He won with Behaving Badly from the 1 hole,and should have won with Bling from the 1 hole.He was the favorite because he was the best horse(even with this career- ending 1 hole.).Yes,he would easily have beaten Songster with any ride at all.

The 2 situations are completely different, but I guess I'm wrong there too. Let me ask you this, with all of your knowledge, did you ever think that maybe Baffert instructed gomez to sit behind the pacesetter, because of the post, like Behaving Badly did today? It was racing luck, it happens everyday. Sometimes the hole doesn't open when you need it too.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Dixie Porter

Hopeless and full of the usual gas as always.

I suggest you look @ Joel's ride in Belmont's 7th on Monday.

BTW, look @ the mutual we took down on a 8/5 shot.

If you knew anything about race watching you would know that this was actually a situation of one horse winning because another rider blew the ride. Clearly the second place finisher, who I did not like and wasn't one of four I used on various Pick-6 tickets, was best and only an unnecessarily agressive ride cost him the win.

By the way, love how you use " we ", as though you are somehow involved with a trainer that is hard pressed to acknowledge your existance. Or, perhaps I misunderstood, and " we " was actually you and the other chalk eating weasels at OTB paying the 5% surcharge.

And, let me add, that once again if you could afford the $5 for a form you would realize it was Joel Cruz's first win in NY.

Nice hit and run....your specialty.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Sweetness

The 2 situations are completely different, but I guess I'm wrong there too. Let me ask you this, with all of your knowledge, did you ever think that maybe Baffert instructed gomez to sit behind the pacesetter, because of the post, like Behaving Badly did today? It was racing luck, it happens everyday. Sometimes the hole doesn't open when you need it too.

Everything isn't racing luck.I know you want to use that to explain away a bad ride,but the fact is that he gave these 2 jocks the opportunity to ride his horse.If you sit right behind the leader on the rail(and you are the chalk)then it isn't "racing luck" when you quickly get locked in down there.It is what will happen 90% of the time.He didn't stay down there today right? He had no plan on Bling.He rode him like he was 5-1(just sit and get lucky.)Well,on chalk you can't expect to get out of the position he was in.Almost all the mistakes he makes are due to him not anticipating other jocks are going to try to get the chalk in trouble.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

This is useless.You are never going to agree that getting stuck like that was predictable(once he stupidly put himself right behind the leader,and enticed Prado to lock him down.)That was not luck.That was stupidity.You really expected him to get out? The problem is that the guy made the same mistake all winter out here.

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

Everything isn't racing luck.I know you want to use that to explain away a bad ride,but the fact is that he gave these 2 jocks the opportunity to ride his horse.If you sit right behind the leader on the rail(and you are the chalk)then it isn't "racing luck" when you quickly get locked in down there.It is what will happen 90% of the time.He didn't stay down there today right? He had no plan on Bling.He rode him like he was 5-1(just sit and get lucky.)Well,on chalk you can't expect to get out of the position he was in.Almost all the mistakes he makes are due to him not anticipating other jocks are going to try to get the chalk in trouble.

First of all, the 90% of the time is straight crap. What difference does it make if it was chalk or not, if he was on a bomb do you think it would have made a difference? The hole didn't open, and that's that. Do you think Prado or Vega cared what the odds were, they were riding to win like Gomez, and all 3 did. You're stuck on the fact that he was the chalk. I honestly don't think that all of the other jocks are sitting there wondering how to get the chalk in trouble, since the chalk only wins approximately 1/3 of the time. I notice you had no response to the Baffert question. I think baffert told him to sit, and that's why Baffert had no gripes with the ride.

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

This is useless.You are never going to agree that getting stuck like that was predictable(once he stupidly put himself right behind the leader,and enticed Prado to lock him down.)That was not luck.That was stupidity.You really expected him to get out? The problem is that the guy made the same mistake all winter out here.

Here's a thought then, don't bet him. I mean what does that say about you that you keep making the "mistake". I don't think it was predictable, I see guys do it everyday, and in this case the hole didn't open. that's it, but you know what, if the hole had opened I'm sure you would have had no problem with the ride.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Sweetness

Here's a thought then, don't bet him. I mean what does that say about you that you keep making the "mistake". I don't think it was predictable, I see guys do it everyday, and in this case the hole didn't open. that's it, but you know what, if the hole had opened I'm sure you would have had no problem with the ride.

If you don't think jocks have an eye on the chalk horse,THEN YOU'RE A FOOL.I play the horses I like,and won't avoid one due to a jock.People make mistakes.I understand that(only too well.)When people say this guy is a great jock,I just can't agree(because I have seen all the mistakes he makes..usually repetitive ones...and you can't be great if you make that many dumb mistakes.)As far as trainers go,lets get something straight here.1)Trainers can simply wheel a horse back,and try again.2)Owners request certain jocks,and so trainers can't really complain about rides(they may lose the ability to use that jock.) 3) a guy like Gomez is a hothead ,and Baffert knows he will be defensive if he is critical of him.4)Trainers simply take jocks off horses if they want to.The main reason they don't get that upset though,is they can always try again.People who bet,and lose money due to a bad ride,don't get another chance.They get one chance.Jock and trainer just tee it up again.Very,very different situations.

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

If you don't think jocks have an eye on the chalk horse,THEN YOU'RE A FOOL.I play the horses I like,and won't avoid one due to a jock.People make mistakes.I understand that(only too well.)When people say this guy is a great jock,I just can't agree(because I have seen all the mistakes he makes..usually repetitive ones...and you can't be great if you make that many dumb mistakes.)As far as trainers go,lets get something straight here.1)Trainers can simply wheel a horse back,and try again.2)Owners request certain jocks,and so trainers can't really complain about rides(they may lose the ability to use that jock.) 3) a guy like Gomez is a hothead ,and Baffert knows he will be defensive if he is critical of him.4)Trainers simply take jocks off horses if they want to.The main reason they don't get that upset though,is they can always try again.People who bet,and lose money due to a bad ride,don't get another chance.They get one chance.Jock and trainer just tee it up again.Very,very different situations.

Yeah you're right I'm a fool. Because I'm sure Baffert really gives a s**t if Gomez is defensive. Baffert is a straight shooter, and he loves to have his name in print. I have heard absolutely nothing coming from him about the ride, and if you think trainers don't get upset at a bad ride, or if they don't win then you haven't been to a track. The thing about horse racing is you may not get another shot, so like in every other post in this thread you are wrong. Baffert has done enough as a trainer to be able to criticize whomever he wants, and he didn't. You see Frankel do it, and who can forget how critical Lukas was about Victor Espinoza's ride on Spain in the 2001 Distaff. And jock and trainer don't just tee it up, they want to win, and if you think Gomez was just "teeing it up" I want to see you get on a horse and try and come up the rail. A lot of jocks won't do it, and Gomez will. Look I get what you're mad at, you needed the horse because you bet him, and I have been victimized by many a bad ride, but I just think you're wrong. I do know that Gomez is one of the most sought after jocks in the world, by all of the top trainers, and I don't think they would want him if he wasn't great. Just taking a shot but I'm thinking they know more than you. And Pletcher could have had anyone come to ride first call for him when Johnny V. went down, and he CHOSE Gomez. I challenge you to find a better horse racing mind than Pletcher.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Like I said,the guy put in a bad ride when I needed a good ride.He let me down,and I don't expect others to feel the same(about him) until he lets them down.It is as simple as that.If somebody rides poorly for you,then you care,and not before that.I understand that you don't give a sht about the ride on Bling.Most people don't care about rides until it keeps them from winning.I disagree with you about trainers though(they edit themselves hugely as far as public consumption concerning rides.) Most of them are too scared to even give a jock instructions.Almost every instance that I see an interview of a trainer before a race(when asked about where they want the horse to be in a race,)they say "I leave that up to my rider." If your saying a trainer has to say a jock gave a bad ride(before you consider it a bad ride,)then there aren't gunna be very many bad rides.They change jocks when they don't like a ride.I have heard Baffert complain more about less established type riders(Santiago,and some apprentices,)but not much about the main riders he uses.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

According to you,every jock on a horse breaking from the 1 hole (in one turn races) now has an iron clad excuse (if they lose.)Just can't be expected to win from there at all.Way too hard for a jockey to make decisions that will lead to a victory from there."Roll of the dice" ...."pray"

[ateamstupid]

I gotta agree with Scuds on this one.

Not that it was a terrible ride by Gomez, but that when you're on a chalk (or any horse that looks good on paper), you have to ride differently than if you're on a wild longshot. Prado knows who he has to beat in that situation, and it ain't Fabulous Strike.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by belmont park is the best

Mig "spotty"?? The guy has ridden on the biggest premire circuit in the world for the last 25 years. A "spotty" rider does not do that. And have you seen some of the sh!t the mig has had to put up with. He's got more metal in him than the Terminator. And on top of that hes been on some pretty bad horses as of late, but I am sure that he will still be in the top 8 at saratoga. He does it almost every year.

So do tell me how he is a "spotty" rider.

Mig's been one of my faves for years and years... I'd also add to the above that he's overcome one debilitating major injury after another including the mistakenly re-set broken arm that could have ended his career.

[SentToStud]

my $0.02...

Mig's a favorite of mine. Still going strong and he's overcome a lot.

In general.... The California jocks are overrated. Small fields in almost all the better races. They rarely need to adjust or adapt. Plus the syle of racing in SoCal is far different than back east. In Cali, they ride like hell to the quarter pole and hope to crawl home first. East coast it's more the opposite ... the jocks back east ride to get position then work from the 3/8 on in. PVal would make the top 5 at any meet but any of the others?

Apprentices are overrated. LeParoux, Rosie, Garcia. Cannot put them in the same sentence as top riders until they prove it after dropping the bug. 5 lbs may not be enough to win any one race, but it means an awful lot over several hundred races. Whatever happened to Foglesonger?

Jockeys who dominate lesser circuits are overrated. I.E., Bravo looks like Arcaro every year in Jersey, but looks very ordinary at Gulfstream. Happens every year. Another is Castro. Doing ok at Monmouth but last year at Calder, he looked great on everything he rode. Now, his inexperience is being exposed and there's been some races he's looked just awful, especially routing on turf. There are very few, if any, top jocks at lesser tracks who can compete with the big boys... Ramon, arguably can. Russell Baze? Nope. Castro? No. Jeremy? Arguably maybe, but I say no.

IMO, the top jockeys are easy to identify. They're the top money winners.

[Dunbar]

What the heck is that avatar, kasept!? Bring back the Neccos!!

;>)
--Dunbar

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

Apprentices are overrated. LeParoux, Rosie, Garcia. Cannot put them in the same sentence as top riders until they prove it after dropping the bug. 5 lbs may not be enough to win any one race, but it means an awful lot over several hundred races. Whatever happened to Foglesonger?

Jockeys who dominate lesser circuits are overrated. I.E., Bravo looks like Arcaro every year in Jersey, but looks very ordinary at Gulfstream. Happens every year. Another is Castro. Doing ok at Monmouth but last year at Calder, he looked great on everything he rode. Now, his inexperience is being exposed and there's been some races he's looked just awful, especially routing on turf. There are very few, if any, top jocks at lesser tracks who can compete with the big boys... Ramon, arguably can. Russell Baze? Nope. Castro? No. Jeremy? Arguably maybe, but I say no.

As you suggest, apprentices may be over-rated skill-wise, but the weight allowance sometimes makes them look good. The top apprentices usually have a pretty good ROI.

In fact, isn't this a pretty good argument against those that say weight isn't important at all in capping? We routinely see apprentices drop by the wayside after they lose the bug.

I agree with what you said about the jockeys from lesser circuits.

--Dunbar

[GPK]

Joel Cruz got his first win of the meet yesterday in the 7th at Belmont because JJ (who I normally love) thought he was in a 5 1/2 furlong sprint instead of a 1 mile route....dumbass. Hands down the loudest I have ever cussed a jockey out at the OTB.

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

I gotta agree with Scuds on this one.

Not that it was a terrible ride by Gomez, but that when you're on a chalk (or any horse that looks good on paper), you have to ride differently than if you're on a wild longshot. Prado knows who he has to beat in that situation, and it ain't Fabulous Strike.

Ateam great post. And I have to admit when I am wrong and at the end of last year I scoffed at Scuds notion that the guy blows chalk rides and told him that was nonsense. Scuds I apologize. After watching the guy ride closely the last 6 months I have concluded exactly that and what Ateam says.
The reason for it is that its become painfully obvious to me that Gomez does not do the prepatory work required to ride consistently at the very highest level. As Ateam said, you don't ride to beat Fabulous Strike when Songster is in the race. Hes also obviously a hothead in the saddle(I don't know him so I don't know anything at all about what he is like in real life, seems like a very nice guy to me who is respectful to everyone in that venue). The guy doesnt like being put in a box or trap by another rider and instead of just grabbing and going wide to get out of the trap, he gets intent on getting through as if proving a point to the guy who locked him in, I've witnessed this on more occasions than just the bizarre ride on Too Much Bling.
To be consistent like Edgar and Johnny at the very highest level of the game you must study the pp's and know who your competition is and how your opponents run and enter battle with some sort of plan a, plan b, and plan c. Its impossible to always have a plan because things happen all the time to screw up what should develop on paper. But that doesnt mean you just make things up as you go along. You have to plan out your rides and expect to be race ridden by your opponents.
I haven't seen a rider posess as much strength as Gomez( I bet he could bench press a volkswagen) since Chris Antley as a younger man, Antley was strong as an ox when he was young. I've seen Gomez seemingly carry a horse to the lead and been in total awe of some of his rides. Of course then he gets on a 4-5 shot in the next race and gets him locked on the rail in traffic when all he needs to do is stay clear and out of trouble. This guy is the single most frustrating rider I have ever seen in 23 years of following the sport, never seen anything even close to his Jekyl and Hide act. One minute you wanna erect a statue of the guy, an hour later you are wishing him painful hemmorhoids.
There isn't anyone alive who can convince me that he fails to read the DRF and do his homework. he just makes it up as he goes along. If he learns to keep his emotions in check while in the saddle and start learning how to study PP's and craft rides he has no boundaries. Thing is he is no spring chicken and you would think if he was ever gonna do those things he would have started already. Johnny and Edgar's prep work sets them aside from the rest, they always choose the right course of action if it is at all available to them.