NY

[Bystander]

Originally Posted by paisjpq

impressive statistics...much better than mine...the last time I got a non-racing friend to watch with me Barbaro broke down...not such a crowd pleaser.

Well, mine are definitely selective statistics. I had about 200 people crammed into a trade show booth to watch the Preakness last year... the same show two years earlier fell during Smarty Jones' Belmont attempt.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by whodey17

I agree with you. Let me rephrase the question...other than slots, what else can be done to help make horse racing better?

Making racing better
1. Lower takeout - Simple and effective. Slots allow tracks (and states) to lower their % because it will be more than offset by the slot income. The increase in handle will eventually cover the lower % and will probably exceed the previous take amount. This gives your customers more money which will go back into the pools which will increase churn which will make tracks more money in the long run. Everybody's happy.

2. Increase owner participation - Tracks do virtually nothing to try to increase the number of people who own horses. Why? Because they are too stupid and cheap to recognize great potential customers. The amount of interest that a person will have in racing if they own just a small piece of a horse will increase dramatically. That increase will in turn cause those people to bring in others as they speak of their ownership experience. Plus the fact that people who would have an interest in possibly owning a horse would be a better demographic to shoot for than the "younger" crowd who the majority of have little time or money. Make people feel like they are part of something instead of just nickel and dining them every chance they can get. Not to mention that those people will be better educated by the ownership experience and who would not want your customer base to be educated?

3. Fix your product - Steps need to be taken in order to improve the product on the track. Things need to be done about a few barns basically controlling all the good horses. Limiting stalls and restricting the amount of foal papers on file would be a start. This is an especially big problem in NY but it is spreading. What do you think the reaction would be in another sport if one team was allowed to dominate to the degree that you rarely saw the players play because one team hoarded them all? It is killing racing at the highest levels and will get worse as those barns just continue to get stronger. Address the statebred programs that run wild in some states. The fact that Saratoga is sometimes carding up to 5 statebred races a day is troubling. Also the idea was to improve the breed overall and the NY program in particular is not achieving that. I say that because the number of bad NYbreds being produced is rising and many of the best NY breds are by out of state stallions anyway. I dont know which is worse, maiden $15k NYB's or those same horses running in MSW's for 48k purses? On a national/regional level get together with other tracks and fix the stakes schedules so that we dont have the same race at three different tracks the same weekend dividing the races up where none of them are very good races.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Making racing better
1. Lower takeout - Simple and effective. Slots allow tracks (and states) to lower their % because it will be more than offset by the slot income. The increase in handle will eventually cover the lower % and will probably exceed the previous take amount. This gives your customers more money which will go back into the pools which will increase churn which will make tracks more money in the long run. Everybody's happy.

2. Increase owner participation - Tracks do virtually nothing to try to increase the number of people who own horses. Why? Because they are too stupid and cheap to recognize great potential customers. The amount of interest that a person will have in racing if they own just a small piece of a horse will increase dramatically. That increase will in turn cause those people to bring in others as they speak of their ownership experience. Plus the fact that people who would have an interest in possibly owning a horse would be a better demographic to shoot for than the "younger" crowd who the majority of have little time or money. Make people feel like they are part of something instead of just nickel and dining them every chance they can get. Not to mention that those people will be better educated by the ownership experience and who would not want your customer base to be educated?

3. Fix your product - Steps need to be taken in order to improve the product on the track. Things need to be done about a few barns basically controlling all the good horses. Limiting stalls and restricting the amount of foal papers on file would be a start. This is an especially big problem in NY but it is spreading. What do you think the reaction would be in another sport if one team was allowed to dominate to the degree that you rarely saw the players play because one team hoarded them all? It is killing racing at the highest levels and will get worse as those barns just continue to get stronger. Address the statebred programs that run wild in some states. The fact that Saratoga is sometimes carding up to 5 statebred races a day is troubling. Also the idea was to improve the breed overall and the NY program in particular is not achieving that. I say that because the number of bad NYbreds being produced is rising and many of the best NY breds are by out of state stallions anyway. I dont know which is worse, maiden $15k NYB's or those same horses running in MSW's for 48k purses? On a national/regional level get together with other tracks and fix the stakes schedules so that we dont have the same race at three different tracks the same weekend dividing the races up where none of them are very good races.

All great ideas and none of which I've seen in any of the plans of the bidders for the franchise. In fact, I think all but NYRA want to raise take-out.

[whodey17]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Making racing better
1. Lower takeout - Simple and effective. Slots allow tracks (and states) to lower their % because it will be more than offset by the slot income. The increase in handle will eventually cover the lower % and will probably exceed the previous take amount. This gives your customers more money which will go back into the pools which will increase churn which will make tracks more money in the long run. Everybody's happy.

2. Increase owner participation - Tracks do virtually nothing to try to increase the number of people who own horses. Why? Because they are too stupid and cheap to recognize great potential customers. The amount of interest that a person will have in racing if they own just a small piece of a horse will increase dramatically. That increase will in turn cause those people to bring in others as they speak of their ownership experience. Plus the fact that people who would have an interest in possibly owning a horse would be a better demographic to shoot for than the "younger" crowd who the majority of have little time or money. Make people feel like they are part of something instead of just nickel and dining them every chance they can get. Not to mention that those people will be better educated by the ownership experience and who would not want your customer base to be educated?

3. Fix your product - Steps need to be taken in order to improve the product on the track. Things need to be done about a few barns basically controlling all the good horses. Limiting stalls and restricting the amount of foal papers on file would be a start. This is an especially big problem in NY but it is spreading. What do you think the reaction would be in another sport if one team was allowed to dominate to the degree that you rarely saw the players play because one team hoarded them all? It is killing racing at the highest levels and will get worse as those barns just continue to get stronger. Address the statebred programs that run wild in some states. The fact that Saratoga is sometimes carding up to 5 statebred races a day is troubling. Also the idea was to improve the breed overall and the NY program in particular is not achieving that. I say that because the number of bad NYbreds being produced is rising and many of the best NY breds are by out of state stallions anyway. I dont know which is worse, maiden $15k NYB's or those same horses running in MSW's for 48k purses? On a national/regional level get together with other tracks and fix the stakes schedules so that we dont have the same race at three different tracks the same weekend dividing the races up where none of them are very good races.

Very nice ideas. I love the re-scheduling of the regional stakes races. This is why I like speaking with you on racing.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Bigsmc

Hard to imagine they actually held a Breeders Cup there.

I've been there hundreds of times and I think the same thing too.
There was a time, not long ago, when it wasn't bad, believe me...

My 2nd favorite racetrack was the one in your avatar.

[SentToStud]

What I have never seen at any racetrack is a place to get information about online wagering. I've been to 3-4 tracks in the last few months with direct ownership ties to ADW companies (Gulf, Philly, etc). You would think that on weekends and big days they get SOME casual fans who would be at least interested in an online account.

I suppose the reason why is that the tracks are trying to squeeze out every on-track dollar they can. Personally, I think they're missing some casual online fan handle.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

What I have never seen at any racetrack is a place to get information about online wagering. I've been to 3-4 tracks in the last few months with direct ownership ties to ADW companies (Gulf, Philly, etc). You would think that on weekends and big days they get SOME casual fans who would be at least interested in an online account.

I suppose the reason why is that the tracks are trying to squeeze out every on-track dollar they can. Personally, I think they're missing some casual online fan handle.

I believe that there are some surprises coming up regarding on line wagering and the tracks are waiting until these things are announced. Or they may just be stupid.

[whodey17]

I have no experience in racetrack operations but this is what I would do:

1) i would reserve the weekends for the highest level of racing. i wouldnt run one claiming race at all on the weekends. i would card one msw and all the rest allowance races or some high level race. i would take advantage of the weekend to bring people out to the races. during the week i would cater to the on-line bettor and to the slot players.

2) i would have a dress code during the weekends as well. you have to have respect for your appearance.

3) i would not offer shopping but i would offer other avenues of entertainment. i would have a bowling alley, game room, pool hall etc etc. a % of the profits could go to the purses.

4) i would decrease the takeout %. i would have guranteed pick 4 and pick 6 pools. i would decrease the number of races per day to 7 during the week and 8 during the weekend.

5) i would increase ownership. ownership is the blood of the horse racing industry. i would make owning a horse easier and more cost effective.

6) get rid of the big barns. i think the maximum number of horses a trainer can train at one time is 20. also, a trainer can not have more than 2 horses entered in the same race.

7) i would re-schedule the stakes races regionally. we need to take advantage of our stars and the potential match-ups.

8) we need to give an incentive for trainers to race their horses more often.

again, i am not a race racing business person but maybe some of these things could work.

[quote=Sightseek]I'd love to know Capital Play's plan to draw women to Aqueduct and in turn drawing men..have they actually been there?! QUOTE]

I believe they were going to hire them from SCORES

[Buffymommy]

[quote=Spendabuck85]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

I'd love to know Capital Play's plan to draw women to Aqueduct and in turn drawing men..have they actually been there?! QUOTE]

I believe they were going to hire them from SCORES

I didn't read the thread, but I wanted to tell you that I loved Spend A Buck too! I think that is going to be my horse's show name at the "higher" rated show we are going to!

[MaTH716]

You guys make good points. Except when you talk about fixing your product. The majority of die hard players are going to play the horses no matter what the races are. The new blood, the people that they should be going after have no idea about things you guys are discussing. The industry as a whole has to make changes to draw this new blood to the sport. Slots and other table games are a good way to get them to the track. But there should be other ideas to get them to understand and eventually play the horses. Aqueduct should strictly be the slots and gaming faculity. It is good for nothing else. They race there at the worst time weather wise and the place is NOT the most family and kid friendly in the world. It would strictly be the place to gamble. Whether, it is the slots or live racing or simicasting. Maybe they could bring Jai Alai back and put it somewhere in Aqueduct. Maybe they could put a 5 star restauraunt in there to also draw people. I do not know about the hotel. Who would want to stay at a nice hotel that is 100 yards away from one of the busiest airports in the world. I also personally think night racing is a great idea and should be explored. Other little things that could be done at other tracks are, make the time in between races shorter. Make trainers and jockeys more accessable. At Saratoga the jockeys walk right through the crowd to get back to the jocks room. That blew my mind. To see and interact with guys like Bailey, JV, Prado is like having Derek Jeter walk past my seat to get back to the dugout. Keep giving away tons of stuff. People love free things. Make sure there are things for kids to do, otherwise parents are going to take them to the zoo and the last time I checked you can't bet an exacta using 2 giraffes and an elephant!

[Swale84]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I believe that there are some surprises coming up regarding on line wagering and the tracks are waiting until these things are announced. Or they may just be stupid.

Both statements are probably true

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by whodey17

5) i would increase ownership. ownership is the blood of the horse racing industry. i would make owning a horse easier and more cost effective.

PLEASE tell me how you would approach this....No disrespect at all...This is one of the strangest industries in the history of mankind....no one ever makes any money - not the owners, not the trainers, not the track, most definately not the players (as a whole)...I've got partners lined up (literally) if you can tell us how to make owning them easier and more cost effective...Each year the cost go up - everything for the total spent at the sales to the day rate...the purses are fairly stagnent, unless you are running at a slots-primed minor track.

You'd have to increase purses - and the dynamic at play now will not allow it- in general. To your point - the focus must be on brining regular players into the ownership piece of the game at a reasonable level. DeeTee is a perfect example. Dee Tee times a thousand and you will grow the sport.

[Linny]

More money for horsemen should make the chances better for some profit, BUT... In NY the union controls on who you may buy hay/feed from, which vets you may use, which farriers etc are killing smaller operations. If purses go up, they raise fees but a guy like Tood can pass the expense on to owners where smaller operations either eat the cost or see owners drop out.

I agree about the plight of smaller operations but as a "free market" supporter I have concerns about limiting the size of some operations. Limiting stalls makes some sense. Guys like Todd in NY and others around the country can lieterally "control" a condition. last summer at SAR, Todd had a horse in almost every open allowance race carded. He tends to complain that a particlar condition never fills but it wont when he has 1/2 the horses on the grounds who are eligible. The secretary then runs around threatening smaller outfits that if they don't run their cheaper claiming mare in some 3other than allowance to fill a race for Todd or Shug that they'll lose stalls. So the guy takes a horse ready to earn some $$$ in a $20 claiming and runs her with stakes mares, gets creamed and then has "no horse" 2 weeks later when her condition shows up. How does that help horsemen? Explain to the owner that your mare is a sacrificial lamb for billionaires like Tabor and Phipps.

I know many people who have "invested" in various partnerships and I know many people involved in managing/selling shares etc. Attend a seminar or "sales meeting" and the first thing you hear is "Don't bring me the mortgage money. Be prepared to lose it all..." The business model is flawed and must be repared, in NY are elsewhere. Sure you may hit a home run but even if you do you are lucky to break even. I heard an interview years ago with one of the partners in Captain Bodgit. Here's a major G1 horse, second in the KY Derby and the owner "broke even" before proceeds from the sale of the colt for stud. You want to know why stars are retired early? Even wealthy owners cannot afford this game! Why should even men wealthier than most of us here cough up millions a year while losing money racing when the shed is calling? They didn't get rich by making charitable donations to "the sport."

[Grits]

Linny, I enjoy your contributions to this board, probably more than anyone here, and I don't know anything whatsoever about you except that you are one smart cookie, especially when it comes to NY racing, and clearly all aspects of the game for that matter.

You're right--dead right. Its a hard sell, regardless, partnerships or sole ownership--when one hears "be prepared to lose your money".

LOSE. Why do I want to stand in a winners' circle, just so I can have my photograph made--while LOSING money. Something is wrong with this picture to me. I don't like losing money for FUN. That's not fun.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Linny

I agree about the plight of smaller operations but as a "free market" supporter I have concerns about limiting the size of some operations. Limiting stalls makes some sense. Guys like Todd in NY and others around the country can lieterally "control" a condition. last summer at SAR, Todd had a horse in almost every open allowance race carded. He tends to complain that a particlar condition never fills but it wont when he has 1/2 the horses on the grounds who are eligible. The secretary then runs around threatening smaller outfits that if they don't run their cheaper claiming mare in some 3other than allowance to fill a race for Todd or Shug that they'll lose stalls. So the guy takes a horse ready to earn some $$$ in a $20 claiming and runs her with stakes mares, gets creamed and then has "no horse" 2 weeks later when her condition shows up. How does that help horsemen? Explain to the owner that your mare is a sacrificial lamb for billionaires like Tabor and Phipps.

"Free markets" dont really exist except in textbooks. What other sport allows a few participants to corner the market on all the talent? It is like the Yankees and Red Sox having a 100 man roster and everybody else playing shorthanded. No one is denying any rights or freedoms, the tracks would simply be putting in rules that would attempt to balance the scales and create more competitive and bettable races. If Todd had 40 horses at every track in America then that is fine. But if you wanted to have your horse racing in NY and he did not have room in his NY stable then you would need to find a different trainer. Multiply this a few times and you have a better product. A better betting product will increase handle which is the lifeblood of the whole industry.
Your examples were right on by the way.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Linny

I know many people who have "invested" in various partnerships and I know many people involved in managing/selling shares etc. Attend a seminar or "sales meeting" and the first thing you hear is "Don't bring me the mortgage money. Be prepared to lose it all..." The business model is flawed and must be repared, in NY are elsewhere. Sure you may hit a home run but even if you do you are lucky to break even. I heard an interview years ago with one of the partners in Captain Bodgit. Here's a major G1 horse, second in the KY Derby and the owner "broke even" before proceeds from the sale of the colt for stud. You want to know why stars are retired early? Even wealthy owners cannot afford this game! Why should even men wealthier than most of us here cough up millions a year while losing money racing when the shed is calling? They didn't get rich by making charitable donations to "the sport."

How many rich people make money when they buy a yacht? How many make money when they pay $100,000 a year to be a member of a country club? Who makes money buying a vacation home (especially in this market)? Who said that you should make any money in the sport? The "business" of owning horses has a flawed model because there is no business of owning horses. Standing stallions or selling yearlings is a business, a very difficult one at that. I dont care if Jess Jackson makes any money at this. The problem is the whole attitude that anyone "should" make money. That is why the terms of many partnerships are very specific upfront. What ever happened to the enjoyment of owning horses for the sport of it?

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

What ever happened to the enjoyment of owning horses for the sport of it?

Amen!

[whodey17]

i dont think the concept of "free markets" should apply in all situations especially in sports. the nfl works so wonderfully because it isnt a free market. owning horse is a hobby or entertainment. it isnt to make money. it is to see your horse finish the race 1st. we need to find someway to make owning a horse easier and more cost effective. one step i would do is to make boarding a horse at a track FREE year around. increase feed competition to lower the cost etc etc. i am not a business person, but i think these smart people could come up with something.

[disappearingdan_akaplaya]

Originally Posted by whodey17

I have no experience in racetrack operations but this is what I would do:

1) i would reserve the weekends for the highest level of racing. i wouldnt run one claiming race at all on the weekends. i would card one msw and all the rest allowance races or some high level race. i would take advantage of the weekend to bring people out to the races. during the week i would cater to the on-line bettor and to the slot players.

2) i would have a dress code during the weekends as well. you have to have respect for your appearance.

3) i would not offer shopping but i would offer other avenues of entertainment. i would have a bowling alley, game room, pool hall etc etc. a % of the profits could go to the purses.

4) i would decrease the takeout %. i would have guranteed pick 4 and pick 6 pools. i would decrease the number of races per day to 7 during the week and 8 during the weekend.

5) i would increase ownership. ownership is the blood of the horse racing industry. i would make owning a horse easier and more cost effective.

6) get rid of the big barns. i think the maximum number of horses a trainer can train at one time is 20. also, a trainer can not have more than 2 horses entered in the same race.

7) i would re-schedule the stakes races regionally. we need to take advantage of our stars and the potential match-ups.

8) we need to give an incentive for trainers to race their horses more often.

again, i am not a race racing business person but maybe some of these things could work.

we have ownership seminars here in chicago in response to some of the other posts in this thread. whodey i have to disagree with some of whatya say. #1 having a dress code would decrease attendance dramatically. certain areas like restaurants in a track already have dress codes but having it all over the entire place again would decrease attendance signifcantly! i disagree with getting rid of the big barns as you say. alotta tracks rely on these barns to fill their races