Trainers and drugs

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

Hey we could label these cheaters terrorists and send them overseas for some good old fashioned torture before their death sentence. They could enjoy various forms of torture like a caning or how about a scoldering coat hanger shoved up their pisshole?

It's time for the $1 exacta boxers to get revenge!!!!

Dude, you are cracking me up. Now sure what to think of someone who can come up with a "scoldering coat hanger shoved up their pisshole."

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

Hey we could label these cheaters terrorists and send them overseas for some good old fashioned torture before their death sentence. They could enjoy various forms of torture like a caning or how about a scoldering coat hanger shoved up their pisshole?

It's time for the $1 exacta boxers to get revenge!!!!

yeah, those accidental postives of things like lidocaine from a foot salve for cracked feet definitely demand high profile punishment.
Calling for a life time ban on any trainer with a postive test without differentiating between accidental overages of no performance enhancing drugs, and flat out juicing is one of the dumbest things I ever heard.

Originally Posted by oracle80

yeah, those accidental postives of things like lidocaine from a foot salve for cracked feet definitely demand high profile punishment.
Calling for a life time ban on any trainer with a postive test without differentiating between accidental overages of no performance enhancing drugs, and flat out juicing is one of the dumbest things I ever heard.

Well see, if a trainer does the testing on his own then he/she will know that the horse is clean before the horse races. The trainer will know what is in the horse so therefore the trainer can make sure that everything is out of the horses system.

Originally Posted by oracle80

yeah, those accidental postives of things like lidocaine from a foot salve for cracked feet definitely demand high profile punishment.
Calling for a life time ban on any trainer with a postive test without differentiating between accidental overages of no performance enhancing drugs, and flat out juicing is one of the dumbest things I ever heard.

eurobounce in 2008!!!

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Do you honestly want me to answer why that is harsh? Let me ask you, and I am really not trying to start an arguement here, but you said you own horses. Do they run with any drugs?
Like I said, I am totally against illegal drugs, and I am not really knowledgable on all of the different legal and illegal. But I know that there are drugs out there that truly do help horses, so to ban all would be kind of nuts. It'd be like banning all medicine because people are abusing codeine. Mistakes happen, and a lifetime ban seems harsh. Now if you are a multiple offender fine, but what if someone who has a squeeky clean record makes a mistake. Seems harsh to ban someone for life. No one is perfect.

There is a huge difference between an overage of a legal drug that was withdrawn in time according to the vet's instructions and lingered, and a guy stepping into a stall and "mainlining" a horse with a hopper on race day.
EPO also doesnt "accidentally" make its way into a horses system. Its not like EPO is like Clen or BUte which can be given quite legally and sometimes lingers.
People who talk about lifetime bans on stuff like this usually have no idea what they are talking about.

Originally Posted by eurobounce

Well see, if a trainer does the testing on his own then he/she will know that the horse is clean before the horse races. The trainer will know what is in the horse so therefore the trainer can make sure that everything is out of the horses system.

Just realize how expensive that is and that the cost would be directly billed and passed on to the owners in the day rate. When you get your first bills for this on your two horses, lemme know what you think about your own idea ok?

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Do you honestly want me to answer why that is harsh? Let me ask you, and I am really not trying to start an arguement here, but you said you own horses. Do they run with any drugs?
Like I said, I am totally against illegal drugs, and I am not really knowledgable on all of the different legal and illegal. But I know that there are drugs out there that truly do help horses, so to ban all would be kind of nuts. It'd be like banning all medicine because people are abusing codeine. Mistakes happen, and a lifetime ban seems harsh. Now if you are a multiple offender fine, but what if someone who has a squeeky clean record makes a mistake. Seems harsh to ban someone for life. No one is perfect.

The horses that only a percentage in do not run on drugs. The trainer doesnt even give the horse any type of pain medication--maybe that is why they arent winning. The ownership group got together (and the trainer is also in the group) and we decided that no drugs should be administered. Now, if the trainer needs to give the horse something then it is written that the horse must wait 32 days after the medicine was administered before the horse can be entered into a race. One of our horses got loose and slif across the pavement at the track. She cut herself up pretty good. The vet gave her some meds for the pain and to fight off any type of infection. The horse wasnt entered in a race until 48 days passed since the last dose was given. I feel that mistakes can be prevented by taking the necessary pre-cautions. Pre-race testing is a precaution that can be used.

Originally Posted by oracle80

Just realize how expensive that is and that the cost would be directly billed and passed on to the owners in the day rate. When you get your first bills for this on your two horses, lemme know what you think about your own idea ok?

I do not get bills. It is a one time flat rate. And again, if you arent giving your horse anything then you wont need to test. If you do give your horse something, just make sure you give it enough time to get out of the system. The point is to make the game fair and legal. What is your suggestions. I hear you making fun of mine but I haven't heard you come up with an idea.

Originally Posted by eurobounce

I do not get bills. It is a one time flat rate. And again, if you arent giving your horse anything then you wont need to test. If you do give your horse something, just make sure you give it enough time to get out of the system. The point is to make the game fair and legal. What is your suggestions. I hear you making fun of mine but I haven't heard you come up with an idea.

Thats because I like to think that there is no "one idea" that can be standardized in a theoretical argument like this one.
The best way to go would be to regulate the vets ok? The notion that these folks have on here most of the time where the trainer is injecting horses is quite funny. Most of these guys don't have any idea what does what. You honestly think they take a syringe themselves and fill it full of something and inject it? I'm trying to picture some trainers I know reading a chemistry book and then trying to get the stuff and fill a syringe and know when and where and how to give the stuff and its pretty funny!!!!! Some of these guys still don't know how to work email!!!!!!!!
The vets do the work, not the trainers.

Originally Posted by oracle80

Thats because I like to think that there is no "one idea" that can be standardized in a theoretical argument like this one.
The best way to go would be to regulate the vets ok? The notion that these folks have on here most of the time where the trainer is injecting horses is quite funny. Most of these guys don't have any idea what does what. You honestly think they take a syringe themselves and fill it full of something and inject it? I'm trying to picture some trainers I know reading a chemistry book and then trying to get the stuff and fill a syringe and know when and where and how to give the stuff and its pretty funny!!!!! Some of these guys still don't know how to work email!!!!!!!!
The vets do the work, not the trainers.

This made me laugh. I am trying to picture someone like Cole Norman with a bunson burner, syringe and a book. That is funny right there.

I can see where regulating the vet can be a viable solution. But who is the person that calls the vet in? I am sure the trainer would like to know what the vet is doing. I am sure the vet gives the trainer a bill. So the trainer has to have some idea as to what is going on here. You cant just turn a blind eye to what the vet is doing and put all the blame on the vet.

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

So no Lasix, bute, etc? SOunds good in theory, and again I am not as knowlegdable as a lot of people on here about this stuff, but what if the horse needs something like Lasix? I recently read an article about Belgravia, Patrick Biancone's very nice 2 year old. He doesn't run on Lasix, like a lot of Biancone's, and when asked about it biancone said he doesn't need it, so why give it to him?

http://www.drf.com/news/article/81198.html

I think in Europe horses do not run on lasix or bute. I could be wrong. If someone knows for sure, please let me know.

Originally Posted by eurobounce

This made me laugh. I am trying to picture someone like Cole Norman with a bunson burner, syringe and a book. That is funny right there.

I can see where regulating the vet can be a viable solution. But who is the person that calls the vet in? I am sure the trainer would like to know what the vet is doing. I am sure the vet gives the trainer a bill. So the trainer has to have some idea as to what is going on here. You cant just turn a blind eye to what the vet is doing and put all the blame on the vet.

I was actually trying to picture someone else, but had the same sort of visual. Like the guy sitting there trying to read this chemistry book and reading out loud and completely mispronouncing the names of the stuff hes reading about. Then I'm trying to picture him online at the store trying to buy syringes and trying to order the stuff hes mispronouncing.
Then I'm picturing him trying to fill a syringe with the correct dosage and screwing it up horribly and injecting the horse and having it fall dead on the ground like the scene in Animal House, and then him running away like the guys in Animal House after the horse dropped dead. Thats pretty much what it would look like.

Originally Posted by oracle80

I was actually trying to picture someone else, but had the same sort of visual. Like the guy sitting there trying to read this chemistry book and reading out loud and completely mispronouncing the names of the stuff hes reading about. Then I'm trying to picture him online at the store trying to buy syringes and trying to order the stuff hes mispronouncing.
Then I'm picturing him trying to fill a syringe with the correct dosage and screwing it up horribly and injecting the horse and having it fall dead on the ground like the scene in Animal House, and then him running away like the guys in Animal House after the horse dropped dead. Thats pretty much what it would look like.

Freaking awesome with the Animal House analogy.

I also think that in some states the horse has to actually bleed in either a workout or race before lasix can be administered. I think this is the case but I could be wrong.

Originally Posted by eurobounce

Freaking awesome with the Animal House analogy.

Well I'm picturing his asst's there next to him standing guard like Bluto and Dday and going "HOLY ****" just like they did when the horse hits the ground with a thump. Then them running as fast as they can through the stable area.

Originally Posted by eurobounce

Freaking awesome with the Animal House analogy.

I can also picture them standing online with smiles like Flounder and saying "Could I please have some synthetic morphine and 5000 syringes?!"

Originally Posted by oracle80

Well I'm picturing his asst's there next to him standing guard like Bluto and Dday and going "HOLY ****" just like they did when the horse hits the ground with a thump. Then them running as fast as they can through the stable area.

Well it would have to be a hispanic D-Day and Bluto. That movie is funny. Vacation was on last night. That movie is a freaking classic. My oldest child couldnt understand why I was laughing so hard.

My basic premise in this is that most people here give these trainers WAY TOO MUCH CREDIT!!!!!

Originally Posted by eurobounce

Well it would have to be a hispanic D-Day and Bluto. That movie is funny. Vacation was on last night. That movie is a freaking classic. My oldest child couldnt understand why I was laughing so hard.

Definitely Hispanic Euro. It would be more like "Holy CHIT!!! the horse he hit the ground!!! Run amigos!!!! Run!!!!

[paisjpq]

I agree with a lot of what you guys are saying on both sides of this argument...so understand that i am not taking sides...
but it isn't rocket science or even really chemisrty to learn and understand how to use drugs to your advantage in a horse...I'm no vet...nor am I a trainer...but i've been injecting horses for years, finding a vein in a horse is not difficult...injecting joints of course is a different story (should only be done by the vet)...but it's silly to suggest that a trainer wouldn't understand how to administer medications or understand what those medications do.