MSNBC's Pricci: Sheikh greedy to retire Bernardini so fast

Originally Posted by Bernardini

such animosity, does it matter who owns a great horse or a great Sire ? btw I had a chance to tour farms around Lexington, and outta 20 odd sires(mineshaft, smarty, empiremaker, ap indy, congaree, etc) Vindication looked the best!!

I think he ownership does matter. By the way, the animosity was earned.

[Bernardini]

Originally Posted by Bold Reasoning

I think he ownership does matter. By the way, the animosity was earned.

do you use that as a handicapping tool as well ?? ownership that is ..

[Merlinsky]

What do you guys think about the remarks on Castellano allowing Bernardini to learn bad habits and be unprepared to hook up with Invasor?

I just happen to think losing Dubai Millennium (Golden Goose #1) had an impact here. He was the great hope and if they don't want Bern and Discreet Cat to meet and DC's going to the big races then they really have a rock and a hard place situation here. Rather than ducking each other or beating each other they decide not to risk the horse (yes it sucks for fans). Invasor's gonna be running as is DC so it's not like they retire everything. I think we all knew Henny Hughes was just racing til they figured out when to retire him--he was a stallion prospect from the beginning and the remaining days were numbered. Bern's well-bred and accomplished and they'd probably like to have AP Indy's successor. They want a homebred Derby winner even if odds are slim to none for anybody even if they have money. I just see how it can be both about money and about breeding the animal themselves by Golden Goose #2. I don't like it as a racing fan but I guess I can see why they did it. Does a G1 win at 4 really make him any better a prospect at stud? They know he's talented and they know he's well bred. He can't run in the Derby so his value on the track is now limited to setting up his sons later by getting good mares. Is there really a top mare that's not gonna go to him because he didn't race at 4? I think he's as viable a prospect as he's gonna be in terms of filling his book at the beginning w/top mares and it's not like it's gonna help him in his all important 3rd crop year. Winning the Dubai World Cup would kick him out of a good chunk of the breeding season and I don't see them blowing the whole year--they had a horse die of freakish illness in grass sickness so they're gun shy.

Now question about Secretariat. I know he had 2 big seasons right so it's not the same as a horse doing like Bernardini and retiring at 3 after roughly half a year of performances. Is the argument that it's ok to retire him at 3 that he's pretty much proven on his typical day that he could chew em up and spit em out therefore running at four is a risk that sportsmanship concerns can't outweigh? Because we saw Seattle Slew, Affirmed, and the Bid all go beyond that even with 2yo campaigns and TC or near TC victories. We get mad with horses like Smarty or Point Given (even though Smarty supposedly had bone bruises that turned into something worse, allegedly) so seems like there's a threshold where it's a little more ok to retire some horses early than others. I'm just asking if you think that's true and just your thoughts on what I've tried to throw out there. Not saying I feel one way or the other. This is an interesting discussion we've got going so I was curious about looking at it this way.

I tried to include reasons it's a different situation from Bernardini but show that other horses in a position of greatness ran on post-3 even with 2yo seasons of note. Now just for a lil present I found this shot of Secretariat on a workout and lemme just say d*mn. http://championsgallery.com/secretariat/fi/0000001b.htm

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

What do you guys think about the remarks on Castellano allowing Bernardini to learn bad habits and be unprepared to hook up with Invasor?

I just happen to think losing Dubai Millennium (Golden Goose #1) had an impact here. He was the great hope and if they don't want Bern and Discreet Cat to meet and DC's going to the big races then they really have a rock and a hard place situation here. Rather than ducking each other or beating each other they decide not to risk the horse (yes it sucks for fans). Invasor's gonna be running as is DC so it's not like they retire everything. I think we all knew Henny Hughes was just racing til they figured out when to retire him--he was a stallion prospect from the beginning and the remaining days were numbered. Bern's well-bred and accomplished and they'd probably like to have AP Indy's successor. They want a homebred Derby winner even if odds are slim to none for anybody even if they have money. I just see how it can be both about money and about breeding the animal themselves by Golden Goose #2. I don't like it as a racing fan but I guess I can see why they did it. Does a G1 win at 4 really make him any better a prospect at stud? They know he's talented and they know he's well bred. He can't run in the Derby so his value on the track is now limited to setting up his sons later by getting good mares. Is there really a top mare that's not gonna go to him because he didn't race at 4? I think he's as viable a prospect as he's gonna be in terms of filling his book at the beginning w/top mares and it's not like it's gonna help him in his all important 3rd crop year. Winning the Dubai World Cup would kick him out of a good chunk of the breeding season and I don't see them blowing the whole year--they had a horse die of freakish illness in grass sickness so they're gun shy.

Now question about Secretariat. I know he had 2 big seasons right so it's not the same as a horse doing like Bernardini and retiring at 3 after roughly half a year of performances. Is the argument that it's ok to retire him at 3 that he's pretty much proven on his typical day that he could chew em up and spit em out therefore running at four is a risk that sportsmanship concerns can't outweigh? Because we saw Seattle Slew, Affirmed, and the Bid all go beyond that even with 2yo campaigns and TC or near TC victories. We get mad with horses like Smarty or Point Given (even though Smarty supposedly had bone bruises that turned into something worse, allegedly) so seems like there's a threshold where it's a little more ok to retire some horses early than others. I'm just asking if you think that's true and just your thoughts on what I've tried to throw out there. Not saying I feel one way or the other. This is an interesting discussion we've got going so I was curious about looking at it this way.

I tried to include reasons it's a different situation from Bernardini but show that other horses in a position of greatness ran on post-3 even with 2yo seasons of note. Now just for a lil present I found this shot of Secretariat on a workout and lemme just say d*mn. http://championsgallery.com/secretariat/fi/0000001b.htm

secretariat was retired due to inheritance tax more than anything. he 'saved the farm' basically, much like round table before him for his farm, and sunday silence for arthur hanc-ock.

I haven't figured out why anyone really gives a c-rap about what the Maktoums do with their money. If they want to buy and retire every one of their horses prematurely, why can't they? When they spend, that money trickles down to all of us. Why do you think Keeneland has such high purses? Because they're supplemented by the sales. High purses draw better horses, better horses draw more handicappers (and the "just fan" types who like to watch the good horses) and then create even more money for purses. Don't even get me started on how multi-million-dollar sales trickles down into the horse communities in general; the bonuses are just too easy to list.

I read somewhere that someone believed the high sales prices over-value stud fees. Well maybe in some cases, but 23-year-old Storm Cat sired a record-priced horse ($16 million for The Green Monkey) and, shock of all shocks, his fee stayed the same as it's been since the 1990s. And many horses who go to stud with large fees suffer the humiliation of having them reduced when they can't live up to the lofty expectations as sires. All I've been doing is reading about stallion fee reductions -- more dropped than raised because they need to fill their books. It's simple economics.

But if the Maktoums want to retire all of their horses at three, why can't they? They're their horses and they can do with them what they please. And if the breeders want to not send their mares to him, then more power to them. That's the way to get them if people are really mad, don't you think? If people in the game are really pi$$ed off, just don't send your mare to their stallions. Simple as that.

What, keeping the horse in training is the "sporting" thing to do to keep the fans happy? Does anyone think the handle generated by gambling on stakes races really boosts purses? What, we lose fans who don't have superstars to follow? Well let it be a lesson to all of us -- pick horses not owned by the Maktoums and maybe that will make us happy. Of course you could pick one to follow not owned by the Maktoums and not sold for seven figures in a true sportsman move (or eight, if the rumors are correct) and have him dead from cancer after two races as a 4-year-old.

I wasn't a Bernardini fan until his tenacious second in the Breeders' Cup, so I'm not losing much. But I will say that I won't be getting on a Darley/Godolphin horse bandwagon any time soon because I like to see them run.

[Danzig]

they're the big news right now, so a lot of interest in all aspects of their program.
personally, if i was richer than croesus, i'd be buying up every good horse i could find as well, so i don't have a beef with them spending a bunch. it's their business what they do with their money, no one else's.

Originally Posted by Cardus

I agree.

You're too old for myspace.com.

Not that I need to explain, but...

I have a niece and she actually helped set it up for me. Thought we could bond over it or something.

We call myspace "The Devil" and since she's 12, we (mainly me) monitor her actions on it very carefully. We watch Dateline, after all...

And I am by far not alone in the "over 30ers" who have myspaces. If you don't know, I think it'd shock you. And at least I recognize it; I give myself props for that.

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

secretariat was retired due to inheritance tax more than anything. he 'saved the farm' basically, much like round table before him for his farm, and sunday silence for arthur hanc-ock.

Ah thanks. Not being of that time I had no idea what that was really about. Just figured him being the one who broke the big drought made it hard to keep risking him but this makes sense.

Does anyone have any thought on John Sikura of Hill 'N' Dale Farm buying Madcap Escapade? I was surprised, since I expected Sheikh Mohammed to put her in his mare band; Dubai Escapade, the half-sister, is with Godolphin. Also, the Sheikh bought an expensive Vindication(of Hill 'N' Dale) colt recently. I think Vindication is on his radar. The Sheikh seems particularly enamored of the Seattle Slew line now, a very potent force in American dirt racing. At least he is keeping horses here for now at Darley/Jonabell. It scares me to think of Slews leaving us and going overseas.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Bold Reasoning

Does anyone have any thought on John Sikura of Hill 'N' Dale Farm buying Madcap Escapade? I was surprised, since I expected Sheikh Mohammed to put her in his mare band; Dubai Escapade, the half-sister, is with Godolphin. Also, the Sheikh bought an expensive Vindication(of Hill 'N' Dale) colt recently. I think Vindication is on his radar. The Sheikh seems particularly enamored of the Seattle Slew line now, a very potent force in American dirt racing. At least he is keeping horses here for now at Darley/Jonabell. It scares me to think of Slews leaving us and going overseas.

mo didn't own madcap, bruce lunsford did. he sold her, claiborne acting as agent, to sikura..and then mr lunsford went to sikura and asked to be allowed to buy half of her back, said she had a special place in his heart...i'll find a link.

[Danzig]

http://www.bloodhorse.com/articleind...e.asp?id=36307

that's on 'madcap'.

Originally Posted by Danzig188

mo didn't own madcap, bruce lunsford did. he sold her, claiborne acting as agent, to sikura..and then mr lunsford went to sikura and asked to be allowed to buy half of her back, said she had a special place in his heart...i'll find a link.

Thanks. I know Mo did not own Madcap, but I thought he would buy her! I am not an insider and it is just my outsider take on what Mo wants to buy.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Bold Reasoning

Thanks. I know Mo did not own Madcap, but I thought he would buy her! I am not an insider and it is just my outsider take on what Mo wants to buy.

oh, i see...
maybe he spent too much on others, didn't have enough left for her. lol but i doubt it!!

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by redransom

I haven't figured out why anyone really gives a c-rap about what the Maktoums do with their money. If they want to buy and retire every one of their horses prematurely, why can't they? When they spend, that money trickles down to all of us. Why do you think Keeneland has such high purses? Because they're supplemented by the sales. High purses draw better horses, better horses draw more handicappers (and the "just fan" types who like to watch the good horses) and then create even more money for purses. Don't even get me started on how multi-million-dollar sales trickles down into the horse communities in general; the bonuses are just too easy to list.

...

But if the Maktoums want to retire all of their horses at three, why can't they? They're their horses and they can do with them what they please. And if the breeders want to not send their mares to him, then more power to them. That's the way to get them if people are really mad, don't you think? If people in the game are really pi$$ed off, just don't send your mare to their stallions. Simple as that.

What, keeping the horse in training is the "sporting" thing to do to keep the fans happy? Does anyone think the handle generated by gambling on stakes races really boosts purses? What, we lose fans who don't have superstars to follow? Well let it be a lesson to all of us -- pick horses not owned by the Maktoums and maybe that will make us happy. Of course you could pick one to follow not owned by the Maktoums and not sold for seven figures in a true sportsman move (or eight, if the rumors are correct) and have him dead from cancer after two races as a 4-year-old.

I wasn't a Bernardini fan until his tenacious second in the Breeders' Cup, so I'm not losing much. But I will say that I won't be getting on a Darley/Godolphin horse bandwagon any time soon because I like to see them run.

Your first 2 sentences seem inconsistent with your last 2 sentences. fwiw, I agree with the last 2.

--Dunbar

[Travis Stone]

Originally Posted by redransom

23-year-old Storm Cat sired a record-priced horse ($16 million for The Green Monkey) and, shock of all shocks, his fee stayed the same as it's been since the 1990s.

The Green Monkey is by Forestry, who is by Storm Cat.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

The Green Monkey is by Forestry, who is by Storm Cat.

Not to mention, even if he had been by Storm Cat, Storm Cat's fee couldn't get much higher than it already is! LMAO

So why is A.P. Indy still at $300,000, while Storm Cat is still at $500,000? Isn't A.P. Indy the leader in America?

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

The Green Monkey is by Forestry, who is by Storm Cat.

Good catch and my bad. The horse I had in my head was actually Mr. Sekiguchi.

Originally Posted by Dunbar

Your first 2 sentences seem inconsistent with your last 2 sentences. fwiw, I agree with the last 2.

--Dunbar

I just won't be getting on any of their horses' bandwagons any time soon because, personally, I like to see them run. That doesn't mean I'd be telling them to keep them in training because I'd be bummed if they didn't. They can do whatever they want...

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Bold Reasoning

So why is A.P. Indy still at $300,000, while Storm Cat is still at $500,000? Isn't A.P. Indy the leader in America?

ap indy leads the general sires list...of course storm cat is either top, or close to the top, for i don't know how many years now....i'd have to look it up to see where ap indy has finished in years past.

but i think storm cat has a lot more appeal commercially than ap indy has had...also, take note that storm cat is currently #15 on the list of leading sire of 2 yo's, and has the most winners, and the most stakes winners on that list, while ap indy is FAR down the list, #45.