Injury Ends career of Pioneerof the Nile

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I'm not ashamed to admit that the horse turned out to be better than I thought he was.

Yeah, but POTN is small potatos compared to Munnings.

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

You'd be surprised at some of the horses that sell really well who don't look like they can run a lick. There was a Speighstown colt at Fasig Tipton Calder that sold for around $1.7 million. I didn't like the horse at all. I wouldn't have paid $100,000 for that horse.

Barbaro, while sharply improving, was vastly overrated as a dirt horse anyway. He had narrow wins over Great Point and Sharp Humor .. and he hammered Bluegrass Cat and Steppenwolfer with a sweet stalking trip. I was more impressed with Barbaro the turf horse.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Yeah, but POTN is small potatos compared to Munnings.



Barbaro was vastly overrated as a dirt horse anyway. He had narrow wins over Great Point and Sharp Humor .. and he hammered Bluegrass Cat and Steppenwolfer with a sweet stalking trip. I was more impressed with Barbaro the turf horse.

I admit I was totally wrong about Munnings. But I wouldn't say that POTN is small potatos compared to Munnings. I think POTN has accomplished much more than Munnings at this point.

There was another Speighstown at Ft Calder that I liked much better than Munnings. His name was Reynaldothewizard. I would have bet you anything that Reynaldo would make more money than Munnings. Reynaldo won first time out but hasn't done much since. He ran 3rd in a Grade II at Saratoga but that was about it. I was totally wrong.

With regards to Barbaro, I would agree with you that most of his dirt races were not overly impressive up until the Derby. But in the Derby, he ran huge.

[Bobby Fischer]

speightstown is the biggest fabricated overpriced stallion out there. Unless he really changes his tune, hes good for nothing but the occasional precocious speed, and will rarely produce classic distance runners.

Munnings does look good at the moment. He's on my vulcher list but he looks good right now.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Bobby Fischer

speightstown is the biggest fabricated overpriced stallion out there. Unless he really changes his tune, hes good for nothing but the occasional precocious speed, and will rarely produce classic distance runners.

Munnings does look good at the moment. He's on my vulcher list but he looks good right now.

You are right. Speighstown was a sprinter. I agree with you that most of his offspring will be sprinters. You might get a few that can stretch out to a mile but I don't think you will see too many that can go further than a mile. I think his offspring look alright in terms of ability. But most of our trainers that looked at them close up didn't think they looked like they would stay very sound.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Bobby Fischer

speightstown is the biggest fabricated overpriced stallion out there. Unless he really changes his tune, hes good for nothing but the occasional precocious speed, and will rarely produce classic distance runners.

Munnings does look good at the moment. He's on my vulcher list but he looks good right now.

I really don't no what to say here. If Speightstown was half the horse that he has emerged as a sire then we would have been blessed to see him race. Speightstown was a nice G1 colt.. Speightstown first crop have been amazing , I wish I had one, everybody wants one.. You guys are clueless if you dont realize that Speightstown is here to stay in a VERY BIG WAY

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by freddymo

I really don't no what to say here. If Speightstown was half the horse that he has emerged as a sire then we would have been blessed to see him race. Speightstown was a nice G1 colt.. Speightstown first crop have been amazing , I wish I had one, everybody wants one.. You guys are clueless if you dont realize that Speightstown is here to stay in a VERY BIG WAY

They are definitely runners and they are certainly precocious.

I guess it just depends what you are looking for. I think Forestry is a pretty good sire but he is expensive and it is unlikely that he is going to produce a Derby winner. If a person is looking for a good miler, Forestry is a good choice. But if you're looking to win the Derby, I would look elsewhere. I think that may have been Bobby's point with Speighstown. I think he was saying that if he was going to spend big money, he would at least want a horse that might be able to win the Derby.

I personally liked the way the Speighstowns worked at the sales last year. After FT Calder last year, I posted here that the two freshman sires I was most impressed with were Lion Heart and Speighstown. Even though The Speighstowns were very fast and were very nice movers, some of the conformation experts thought they could have soundness issues.

From the 2 year old sales this year my favorite freshman sire was Rock Hard Ten. I thought most of them had a really nice way of going. There are some other freshman sires that look a little more precocious but overall I liked RHT the best.

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Even though The Speighstowns were very fast and were very nice movers, some of the conformation experts thought they could have soundness issues.

Can you refresh my memory what was wrong with them to suggest soundness issues? I know I've heard, but I'm drawing a blank.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

Can you refresh my memory what was wrong with them to suggest soundness issues? I know I've heard, but I'm drawing a blank.

I'm not a conformation expert. I just strictly rely on the videos. It was a couple of our trainers that thought they didn't look very sound. I don't remember if there was a specific issue that they all seemed to have or if they just didn't look very sturdy. When I get a chance, I'll ask them what they didn't like about them.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

They are definitely runners and they are certainly precocious.

I guess it just depends what you are looking for. I think Forestry is a pretty good sire but he is expensive and it is unlikely that he is going to produce a Derby winner. If a person is looking for a good miler, Forestry is a good choice. But if you're looking to win the Derby, I would look elsewhere. I think that may have been Bobby's point with Speighstown. I think he was saying that if he was going to spend big money, he would at least want a horse that might be able to win the Derby.

I personally liked the way the Speighstowns worked at the sales last year. After FT Calder last year, I posted here that the two freshman sires I was most impressed with were Lion Heart and Speighstown. Even though The Speighstowns were very fast and were very nice movers, some of the conformation experts thought they could have soundness issues.

From the 2 year old sales this year my favorite freshman sire was Rock Hard Ten. I thought most of them had a really nice way of going. There are some other freshman sires that look a little more precocious but overall I liked RHT the best.

I tell you what...In the last 5 years there hasn't been a sire as hot as Speightstown.. I remember a race on Oaks day it was a NW1x and it featured 5 Speightstoen all of which looked like likely Graded winners in the futurs all of which had 80 plus BSF in there brief career.. this stallion book was ok nothing super special, which his current success he will attract a better book and likely more router types.. I hated him as a horse but only a fool would ignore his current success

[Bobby Fischer]

well i looked up Speightstown, and Lord Shanakill looks like he is fairly classy and can run in G2 over in England. He's a horse that I've never heard of. I am in no way a pedigree expert, and I usually form generalizations based on when I see the pedigree in the races I happen to handicap. For all I know he could be a great sire...

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by freddymo

I tell you what...In the last 5 years there hasn't been a sire as hot as Speightstown.. I remember a race on Oaks day it was a NW1x and it featured 5 Speightstoen all of which looked like likely Graded winners in the futurs all of which had 80 plus BSF in there brief career.. this stallion book was ok nothing super special, which his current success he will attract a better book and likely more router types.. I hated him as a horse but only a fool would ignore his current success

I'd say Street Cry has him beaten in the "hot" department.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by freddymo

I tell you what...In the last 5 years there hasn't been a sire as hot as Speightstown.. I remember a race on Oaks day it was a NW1x and it featured 5 Speightstoen all of which looked like likely Graded winners in the futurs all of which had 80 plus BSF in there brief career.. this stallion book was ok nothing super special, which his current success he will attract a better book and likely more router types.. I hated him as a horse but only a fool would ignore his current success

I can't knock him. As I said, he produces runners. I think he was in the top 3 freshman sires last year along with Tapit and Lion Heart. I do think his offspring will have distance limitations but if he keeps producing horses like Munnings, I don't think anyone is going to complain.

What was your knock on him as a racehorse? I know he wasn't very sound but he had a lot of talent. When he was on he could sprint with anyone. I think he is one of the best sprinters we have had in the last 5 years.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

I'd say Street Cry has him beaten in the "hot" department.

I challenge...Sure Street Sense was Ok but Speightstown moved up a ton of mares ...Street Cry had a MUCH better first book then Speightstown.. Plus there a ton of Speightstowns on the track doing well and earning.. There are plenty of Street Talk's that can't run a 65 BSF.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I can't knock him. As I said, he produces runners. I think he was in top 3 freshman sires last year along with Tapit and Lion Heart.

What was your knock on him as a racehorse? I know he wasn't very sound but he had a lot of talent. When he was on he could sprint with anyone. I think he is one of the best sprinters we have had in the last 5 years.

He just wasn't a very fast horse.. He was legit but hardily special

[Honu]

Originally Posted by Bobby Fischer

well i looked up Speightstown, and Lord Shanakill looks like he is fairly classy and can run in G2 over in England. He's a horse that I've never heard of. I am in no way a pedigree expert, and I usually form generalizations based on when I see the pedigree in the races I happen to handicap. For all I know he could be a great sire...

Lord Shanakill will be coming to the BC if everything stays ok with him.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

I'd say Street Cry has him beaten in the "hot" department.

Smart Strike.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Smart Strike.

Smart Strike has been around awhile and wasn't the insta sucess Speightstown and Street Cry were..That doesn't mitigate the Smart Strike is a terrific stallion and smoking hot

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Smart Strike has been around awhile and wasn't the insta sucess Speightstown and Street Cry were..That doesn't mitigate the Smart Strike is a terrific stallion and smoking hot

Of the Freshman sires from last year, I would take Tapit in a second over Speighstown. I don't think it is any contest. I don't think Tapit's success last year was a fluke at all. I thought his 2 year olds looked great again this year at the sales.

I haven't looked at the numbers but I thought Lion Heart did better last year than Speighstown. However that could be misleading because I think Lion Heart had about 200 babies in his first year.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

Can you refresh my memory what was wrong with them to suggest soundness issues? I know I've heard, but I'm drawing a blank.

I asked a friend of mine what the issue was with the Speighstowns. He said there wasn't necessarily one specific thing but he said they tend to have offset knees and they also tend to tow out a little bit. In addition, he said they tend to have these big, heavy bodies. It can be tough for a horse with a big, heavy body to stay sound if he's got crooked legs.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I asked a friend of mine what the issue was with the Speighstowns. He said there wasn't necessarily one specific thing but he said they tend to have offset knees and they also tend to tow out a little bit. In addition, he said they tend to have these big, heavy bodies. It can be tough for a horse with a big, heavy body to stay sound if he's got crooked legs.

Seems to me they are pretty fn fast