RunfortheDoe wins Oaklawn Handicap?

[Cannon Shell]

Naproxen is known over the counter as Aleve. Not defending Wolfson but the labs have a really hard time with this drug as it lingers in the system. Despite the propaganda to the contrary the withdrawal times of this drug vary widely between states.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Cardus

With what do the labs have a hard time regarding this drug? Detecting it? Concluding how much of it is in the system?

They have no problem detecting it. The problem is that you can stop giving it far in advance of the allowed time frame and still get a positive result. In KY the suggested withdrawl was 48 hours (which it is in many other states) but they were getting all kinds of positives. So they made the withdrawl time 5 days and still got some. i know for a fact of a horse that was off 7 days that still tested positive. I have no idea why this is as most of the common meds have withdrawl times that if you follow you will be ok 99.8% of the time.

[Bobby Fischer]

yea, part of the reason it is popular is that it can last 12+ hrs

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Naproxen is known over the counter as Aleve. Not defending Wolfson but the labs have a really hard time with this drug as it lingers in the system. Despite the propaganda to the contrary the withdrawal times of this drug vary widely between states.

my first choice anymore...

are there other drugs with similar effects without the withdrawal questions?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Bobby Fischer

yea, part of the reason it is popular is that it can last 12+ hrs

However detection of a drug has virtually nothing to do with effectiveness. If you take an Aleve today think it will help you on Sunday?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

my first choice anymore...

are there other drugs with similar effects without the withdrawal questions?

Naproxen is a good drug. But we dont use it much because it is unpredictable.

[chucklestheclown]

Rats. I missed the cruxifiction.

[Kasept]

I think Chuck effectively stemmed the Ox Bow Incident with his explanation of Naproxen and its use. If you listened to ATR Wednesday night you also would have heard Dr. Robert Lewis, Chairman of the Racing Medication and Testing Consortium, specifically cite Naproxen as a benign medication in the scheme of things.

Here is a link to the germane chapter in the Model Rules on what RMTC is trying to accomplish with them:
http://www.rmtcnet.com/resources/Cha...Rules_1-09.PDF

As discussed yesterday with Dr. Lewis, the issue or problem here isn't the use of Naproxen... It's that there isn't a standard by which it's use is measured uniformally. New York says to stop giving it 48 hours ahead of a race. California 120 hours. Canada 96 or 120 depending on dosage. Arkansas doesn't even have a guideline for it. The same basic product (Bute) can be used in California on raceday itself.

Here is the schedule of Uniform Classification Guidelines in the RMTC Model Rules:

Class 1
Opiates, opium derivatives, synthetic opioids, psychoactive drugs, amphetamines and U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) scheduled I and II drugs. Also found in this class are drugs which are potent stimulants of the nervous system. Drugs in this class have no generally accepted medical use in the racehorse and their pharmacological potential for altering the performance of a race is very high.

Class 2
Drugs in this category have a high potential for affecting the outcome of a race. Most are not generally accepted as therapeutic agents in the racehorse. Many are products intended to alter consciousness or the psychic state of humans, and have no approved or indicated use in the horse. Some, such as injectable local anesthetics, have legitimate use in equine medicine, but should not be found in a racehorse.

Class 3
Drugs in this class may or may not have an accepted therapeutic use in the horse. Many are drugs that affect the cardiovascular, pulmonary and autonomic nervous systems. They all have the potential of affecting the performance of a racehorse.

Class 4
This category is comprised primarily of therapeutic medications routinely used in racehorses. These may influence performance, but generally have a more limited ability to do so.

Class 5
Drugs in this category are therapeutic medications for which concentration limits have been established as well as certain miscellaneous agents. Included specifically are agents, which have very localized action only, such as anti-ulcer drugs and certain anti-allergenic drugs.

[blackthroatedwind]

You make think this incident is " stemmed " but others may not see it that way. Sorry.

[Danzig]

this is his second violation for naproxen isn't it? you'd think if you got burned once on a drug that has questionable withdrawal times that you wouldn't use it again.

[Sightseek]

I'm not playing the defender here, but I take Naproxen over other pain meds because I had ulcers - perhaps it's the same situation here and better than the alternative since ulcers in TBs is common.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

I'm not playing the defender here, but I take Naproxen over other pain meds because I had ulcers - perhaps it's the same situation here and better than the alternative since ulcers in TBs is common.

that could be...but like i said, if you have a drug with unpredictable withdrawal times, it might be best not to use it.

[Bobby Fischer]

Is Wolfson moving his horses up? - yes, at times extraordinarily

Is Wolfson moving his horses up by illegal means? - maybe

Is Wolfson moving his horses up with Naproxen? - not significantly

Should Wolfson still face the (appropriate) music for this Class 4 violation? - yes

[JerseyJ]

I love how anyone would even try and defend a trainer who gets a freaking drug positive. As a trainer, you are responsible for ensuring that none of your horses who run are running under any drug that is not allowed or any drug that might not be able to withdraw from a system in time for race day. The trainer is responsible for running the operation.

I think it's ridiculous that trainers who get a drug positive get defended and get a slap on the wrist most of the time. There are rules in the sport and they must be followed to protect the integrity of the game. If you get caught using something you aren't supposed to at the wrong time, it's cheating plain and simple.

It's not like Martin Wolfson is someone who was mistakenly setup by someone who was vindicative towards him. Martin Wolfson is someone who HAS BEEN CAUGHT CHEATING BEFORE. It's not his first time or a case of him being setup. He has been caught before and he got caught again. In addition to that, Wolfson has received horses from great trainers such as Todd Pletcher and Bill Mott, and not only have they run well, they have run extensively better for Wolfson than for Mott and Pletcher. But like I said earlier, Mott and Pletcher are clueless. Might as well move their stables to Finger Lakes. Wolfson is a cheater who has been exposed, and had the audacity to question Beyer's article. Hopefully Beyer goes after cheaters like this even more aggressively in the future.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Kasept

I think Chuck effectively stemmed the Ox Bow Incident with his explanation of Naproxen and its use. If you listened to ATR Wednesday night you also would have heard Dr. Robert Lewis, Chairman of the Racing Medication and Testing Consortium, specifically cite Naproxen as a benign medication in the scheme of things.

Here is a link to the germane chapter in the Model Rules on what RMTC is trying to accomplish with them:
http://www.rmtcnet.com/resources/Cha...Rules_1-09.PDF

As discussed yesterday with Dr. Lewis, the issue or problem here isn't the use of Naproxen... It's that there isn't a standard by which it's use is measured uniformally. New York says to stop giving it 48 hours ahead of a race. California 120 hours. Canada 96 or 120 depending on dosage. Arkansas doesn't even have a guideline for it. The same basic product (Bute) can be used in California on raceday itself.



Class 4
This category is comprised primarily of therapeutic medications routinely used in racehorses. These may influence performance, but generally have a more limited ability to do so.
.

Many feel that Marijuana is benign but it is still against the law. Why have rules if they are not to be followed? I dont by the uniformity, these guys know what they are doing and ignorance is not a defense.

This is not MW first issue with a violation, nor his second, third,...etc.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Many feel that Marijuana is benign but it is still against the law. Why have rules if they are not to be followed? I dont by the uniformity, these guys know what they are doing and ignorance is not a defense.

This is not MW first issue with a violation, nor his second, third,...etc.

Actually, it is the 2nd positive of his career. Both have been with Class 4 items. The first was the Isoxsuprine case with Can't Beat It in Chicago. Illinois ended up agreeing with Wolfson on the case, over-turned the violation, and then changed their own withdrawl guidelines on the product from an outlandish 21 days when the rest of the country uses 4-7 days as the guideline.

This is the point of the RMTC Model Rules project. Horsemen widely use things like anti-infammatories, and the guidelines and levels are all over the place for them. In this case, Wolfson took It's a Bird off it 120 hours before the race. In New York, they suggest coming off it only 48 hours before... Other jurisdictions suggest 96-120 hours. Arkansas doesn't even have a published guideline in the system.

Here's the RMTC Withdrawl Times engine:
http://www.rmtcnet.com/withdrawal_agree.asp

You're going to continue to have these kinds of positives with the wide disparities in allowable levels of the various medications. Like Todd Pletcher's Procaine positive and Disqualification with Wait a While in the Breeders' Cup...

[MISTERGEE]

based on what I am reading here how could this possibly warrant a dq?

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Actually, it is the 2nd positive of his career. Both have been with Class 4 items. The first was the Isoxsuprine case with Can't Beat It in Chicago. Illinois ended up agreeing with Wolfson on the case, over-turned the violation, and then changed their own withdrawl guidelines on the product from an outlandish 21 days when the rest of the country uses 4-7 days as the guideline.

This is the point of the RMTC Model Rules project. Horsemen widely use things like anti-infammatories, and the guidelines and levels are all over the place for them. In this case, Wolfson took It's a Bird off it 120 hours before the race. In New York, they suggest coming off it only 48 hours before... Other jurisdictions suggest 96-120 hours. Arkansas doesn't even have a published guideline in the system.

Here's the RMTC Withdrawl Times engine:
http://www.rmtcnet.com/withdrawal_agree.asp

You're going to continue to have these kinds of positives with the wide disparities in allowable levels of the various medications. Like Todd Pletcher's Procaine positive and Disqualification with Wait a While in the Breeders' Cup...

And if the trainer cannot get with his vet to figure it out then they should keep getting stiffer and stiffer penalties.

These guys are always innocent, always have an excuse......they could be confused with convicts to that extent. Its never their fault, they did not do it, and even if they did its the structural make up of the system.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by JerseyJ

It's not like Martin Wolfson is someone who was mistakenly setup by someone who was vindicative towards him. Martin Wolfson is someone who HAS BEEN CAUGHT CHEATING BEFORE. It's not his first time or a case of him being setup. He has been caught before and he got caught again. In addition to that, Wolfson has received horses from great trainers such as Todd Pletcher and Bill Mott, and not only have they run well, they have run extensively better for Wolfson than for Mott and Pletcher. But like I said earlier, Mott and Pletcher are clueless. Might as well move their stables to Finger Lakes. Wolfson is a cheater who has been exposed, and had the audacity to question Beyer's article. Hopefully Beyer goes after cheaters like this even more aggressively in the future.

When you say Todd Pletcher, you mean the trainer that had Wait a While disqualified from her 2008 Breeders' Cup 3rd due to a Procaine positive? That Todd Pletcher? The one that sat out 45 days in 2007 due to a mepivicaine positive? Just want to be sure we're talking about the same Todd Pletcher... The one that moved Fleet Indian up 15 lengths off Jimmy Toner?

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Kasept

When you say Todd Pletcher, you mean the trainer that had Wait a While disqualified from her 2008 Breeders' Cup 3rd due to a Procaine positive? That Todd Pletcher? The one that sat out 45 days in 2007 due to a mepivicaine positive? Just want to be sure we're talking about the same Todd Pletcher... The one that moved Fleet Indian up 15 lengths off Jimmy Toner?

Pletcher has more positives than the late Steve Howe. I hear with the next one he gets a free toaster.