Biancone, cold with 2 year olds, my theory why

[zippyneedsawin]

Originally Posted by Nostradamus

This is just somebody who doesn't like polytrack. City Snitch won because he was a very good horse with a race under his belt, not because he went up to Oklahoma. There are a million reasons why he might not be doing as well with two year old first starters (if that is even factually correct). The weather has been 90 degrees the entire meet and the track surface has been all over the place. He might just have two year olds that haven't liked the weather or he might have learned a lesson that getting 2yr olds cranked up for their first start is moronic. I see Pletcher has had a ton of success in the classic races with this brilliant way of training. Asmussen too.

If you bet on heavy favorite 2yr old horses at Saratoga you are insane.

Did somebody say something??


Something else to consider is how speed has been playing at Saratoga so far, it appears to me that speed is not holding up that well(most of the time). If Biancone's babies are all speed demons, that could be another factor for why he's not succeeding this year with 2yos.

[ceejay]

It could be a lot of reasons. It could also be that the ones he left in KY were just behind City Snitch developmentally. I really don't care why. I find the observation interesting and from a handicapping perspective I'll keep an eye out for the PT returners and see if they step forward and then maybe have a playable angle.

[jpops757]

I have noticed after a strong start with his 2yr old ,Assmusen has tailed of a he is bringing some of thers from TP also. I havent looked at all of them but I remember several and Oras post sure does make sense.

This was something that I noticed during Churchill's summer meet. Horses would train at Turfway on the Polytrack and then not run very well at Churchill.

[JJP]

Interesting angle. But isn't it possible that maybe there's some sort of virus going thru Biancone's barn? Maybe nothing serious but we see how streaky some trainers get.

It also should be pointed out that trainers like Romans and others were doing quite well at CD and Kee when shipping in from TP off the Polytrack workouts. Also isn't it possible that Biancone's horses may be better when the distances get longer since so many of them are classicly bred?

[Nostradamus]

Originally Posted by JJP

Interesting angle. But isn't it possible that maybe there's some sort of virus going thru Biancone's barn? Maybe nothing serious but we see how streaky some trainers get.

It also should be pointed out that trainers like Romans and others were doing quite well at CD and Kee when shipping in from TP off the Polytrack workouts. Also isn't it possible that Biancone's horses may be better when the distances get longer since so many of them are classicly bred?

There are a million reasons but polytrack isn't one. Horses do just fine going from poly to dirt, as you pointed out. They just don't like polytrack and they worship Saratoga. Keeneland, and probably Del Mar and Churchill are going poly and they are trying to make their great NY tracks out to be something special.

Who cares about the horses being safer on poly though as long as Saratoga stays dirt. Screw the horses. LOL

[kenny p]

Oracle, First, another thanks for Cotton Blossoms. Your thread on Biancone is very interesting. I will be paying close attention to his 2 yr olds from here on in. Guys like you and Steve clue me in to things I would not have seen myself. All part of a never ending education. Thanks KP

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by Nostradamus

There are a million reasons but polytrack isn't one. Horses do just fine going from poly to dirt, as you pointed out. They just don't like polytrack and they worship Saratoga. Keeneland, and probably Del Mar and Churchill are going poly and they are trying to make their great NY tracks out to be something special.

Who cares about the horses being safer on poly though as long as Saratoga stays dirt. Screw the horses. LOL

Show me the FACTS that polytrack is actually safer than a well founded dirt track and I would agree that switching surfaces is better. I don't think that polytrack has been around long enough in order to prove that it is safer.

[Nostradamus]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Show me the FACTS that polytrack is actually safer than a well founded dirt track and I would agree that switching surfaces is better. I don't think that polytrack has been around long enough in order to prove that it is safer.

This is absolutely ridiculous. Polytrack is much safer and any horseman knows that. Get on a horse on the poly and you will see how much firmer a footing a horse has.

Here from Keeneland

Why Keeneland Believes A Polytrack Racing Surface Is Superior to a Conventional Dirt Track
Statistics are showing that Polytrack is a safer racing surface for horses and jockeys. Its soft surface is kinder to horses’ joints and legs.
A Polytrack surface remains consistent regardless of weather. Comparatively, with a conventional dirt track, weather--especially rain and cold temperatures that can cause a racetrack to freeze and thaw--can produce dangerous conditions on a racing surface.
Since installing Polytrack, Turfway Park has improved safety, increased the number of starters, and greatly decreased the number of cancelled racing dates due to track condition or weather.

Fall ’04 thru Winter ‘05 Fall ’05 thru Winter ‘06
Catastrophic Breakdowns 24 3
Number of Starters 8,925 10,208
Cancelled Racing Days 11 1

from 24 breakdowns to 3. 11 cancelled racing days to 1.

The sub layers include porous macadam and dense aggregate rock that provide a solid foundation while vertical drainage pipes carry water away from the track. Together, these elements provide a safer, more consistent racing surface compared to a conventional dirt track.

[slotdirt]

If horses run so well from poly to dirt, why is it a pretty widely used angle to not use a horse who has run really well on poly their first start back on dirt? Just wondering.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by Nostradamus

This is absolutely ridiculous. Polytrack is much safer and any horseman knows that. Get on a horse on the poly and you will see how much firmer a footing a horse has.

Here from Keeneland

Why Keeneland Believes A Polytrack Racing Surface Is Superior to a Conventional Dirt Track
Statistics are showing that Polytrack is a safer racing surface for horses and jockeys. Its soft surface is kinder to horses’ joints and legs.
A Polytrack surface remains consistent regardless of weather. Comparatively, with a conventional dirt track, weather--especially rain and cold temperatures that can cause a racetrack to freeze and thaw--can produce dangerous conditions on a racing surface.
Since installing Polytrack, Turfway Park has improved safety, increased the number of starters, and greatly decreased the number of cancelled racing dates due to track condition or weather.

Fall ’04 thru Winter ‘05 Fall ’05 thru Winter ‘06
Catastrophic Breakdowns 24 3
Number of Starters 8,925 10,208
Cancelled Racing Days 11 1

from 24 breakdowns to 3. 11 cancelled racing days to 1.

The sub layers include porous macadam and dense aggregate rock that provide a solid foundation while vertical drainage pipes carry water away from the track. Together, these elements provide a safer, more consistent racing surface compared to a conventional dirt track.

Like I said, i'm not going to believe that it is 100% safer by looking at two seasons on the surface. You also need to take into consideration, how many of those 24 breakdowns on the dirt were missteps, etc.

[Nostradamus]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

If horses run so well from poly to dirt, why is it a pretty widely used angle to not use a horse who has run really well on poly their first start back on dirt? Just wondering.

It isn't a good angle at all. There is no statistical proof of it. The only statistical proof so far is that poly is safer than horses. They have found nothing to prove what you are saying.

[Nostradamus]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Like I said, i'm not going to believe that it is 100% safer by looking at two seasons on the surface. You also need to take into consideration, how many of those 24 breakdowns on the dirt were missteps, etc.

The poly has has also cut veterinary bills by 30 percent to 40 percent. Even though vets are losing money they all agree that it is better for the horses.

They also love it over at Lingfield.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by Nostradamus

It isn't a good angle at all. There is no statistical proof of it. The only statistical proof so far is that poly is safer than horses. They have found nothing to prove what you are saying.

Notice how the article title read... Why Keeneland Believes A Polytrack Racing Surface Is Superior to a Conventional Dirt Track.

Big difference between facts and BELIEFS. Geesh... do we need to get the dictionary out again?

[Nostradamus]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Notice how the article title read... Why Keeneland Believes A Polytrack Racing Surface Is Superior to a Conventional Dirt Track.

Big difference between facts and BELIEFS. Geesh... do we need to get the dictionary out again?

Facts

1) casualties went way down
2) racing days went up
3) vet costs are down
4) vets believe it is safer because of the footing horses get
5) top trainers are now moving their horses to train on the poly
6) CA and KY tracks are going to it.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniont...1horsecol.html

Stop being clueless and brainwashed by these poly haters like NYRA. The horses should come first.

[slotdirt]

Isn't Nostradamus aka boldruler the same guy that claims to only have been following horse racing for a matter of months, yet now we're supposed to believe what he has to say on polytrack vs. dirt and what trainers and others in the business may or may not believe is the better surface?

I'll pass, thanks.

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Notice how the article title read... Why Keeneland Believes A Polytrack Racing Surface Is Superior to a Conventional Dirt Track.

Big difference between facts and BELIEFS. Geesh... do we need to get the dictionary out again?

Cajun, I had two horses train and race over the PolyTrack surface and I can say without a doubt that the surface is much kinder to the horse. They have studied this extensively over in Europe. There is not enough data on PolyTrack runners going to dirt or to turf yet. We need about 3 racing seasons to figure that out. But the horses I have co-owned are much more sound when training and racing on PolyTrack. I just had a horse race at Mountaineer and she finished 2nd last weekend. She has since worked over the track at Mountaineer and she came back sore. So we are shipping her back to Turfway to work.

[Nostradamus]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Isn't Nostradamus aka boldruler the same guy that claims to only have been following horse racing for a matter of months, yet now we're supposed to believe what he has to say on polytrack vs. dirt and what trainers and others in the business may or may not believe is the better surface?

I'll pass, thanks.

I personally don't like it but an too lazy to change the screen name.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by eurobounce

Cajun, I had two horses train and race over the PolyTrack surface and I can say without a doubt that the surface is much kinder to the horse. They have studied this extensively over in Europe. There is not enough data on PolyTrack runners going to dirt or to turf yet. We need about 3 racing seasons to figure that out. But the horses I have co-owned are much more sound when training and racing on PolyTrack. I just had a horse race at Mountaineer and she finished 2nd last weekend. She has since worked over the track at Mountaineer and she came back sore. So we are shipping her back to Turfway to work.

Thank you, Euro. As a horse owner, you would know. I don't own a racehorse, so I will take your word for it.

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Thank you, Euro. As a horse owner, you would know. I don't own a racehorse, so I will take your word for it.

You are very welcome. Also, there has been a slight decline in vet bills. Ours have declined about 12%.