Afleet Alex

[slotdirt]

You know, I was just thinking about recent 3YO's who won the HOY award:

Point Given
Charismatic
Favorite Trick (2YO!!!!)
AP Indy
SUnday Silence

This is totally a new topic, I realize this, but I find it suspect that horses like Favorite Trick and Charismatic won the HOY award, but Afleet Alex and Smarty Jones - two of the best 3YO's we'll see in a while - finished second to Ghostzapper and Saint Liam, respectively.

Don't have anything else to add besides that to be honest.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

You know, I was just thinking about recent 3YO's who won the HOY award:

Point Given
Charismatic
Favorite Trick (2YO!!!!)
AP Indy
SUnday Silence

This is totally a new topic, I realize this, but I find it suspect that horses like Favorite Trick and Charismatic won the HOY award, but Afleet Alex and Smarty Jones - two of the best 3YO's we'll see in a while - finished second to Ghostzapper and Saint Liam, respectively.

It is all just luck really. I think most people would agree that Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex were better horses - and had better years - than someone like Charismatic. It just so happened that in 2004 and 2005 there was a fairly clear cut champion in the older horse division. When this is the case, that horse will usually win HOY. In 1999 you had a situation where the BCC was won by Cat Thief who had won only one other stakes race that year, and who had actually been beaten by Charismatic in the Derby. So obviously Cat Thief isn't going to be HOY....thus Charasmatic wins by default.

[Pointg5]

Originally Posted by miraja2

It is all just luck really. I think most people would agree that Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex were better horses - and had better years - than someone like Charismatic. It just so happened that in 2004 and 2005 there was a fairly clear cut champion in the older horse division. When this is the case, that horse will usually win HOY. In 1999 you had a situation where the BCC was won by Cat Thief who had won only one other stakes race that year, and who had actually been beaten by Charismatic in the Derby. So obviously Cat Thief isn't going to be HOY....thus Charasmatic wins by default.

I don't know how you can say Smarty and Afleet Alex had better years than Charismatic:

All three won a G2 then 2/3rd's of the Triple Crown, looks pretty even to me. Charismatic got really good in the Lexington Stakes and then went from there...

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Pointg5

I don't know how you can say Smarty and Afleet Alex had better years than Charismatic:

All three won a G2 then 2/3rd's of the Triple Crown, looks pretty even to me. Charismatic got really good in the Lexington Stakes and then went from there...

Smarty Jones won six stakes races in 2004 while Charismatic won three in 1999. Seems like pretty simple math to me.

[Pointg5]

Originally Posted by miraja2

Smarty Jones won six stakes races in 2004 while Charismatic won three. Seems like pretty simple math to me.

How many of those were graded? People forget that Smarty needed to win or place in the Arkansas Derby to even qualify for the Kentucky Derby.

[slotdirt]

Lots of horses need to have good showings in their final preps to qualify for the Derby. Smarty had a brilliant 3YO career, I don't think that can be argued. Charismatic - as great as he was - was running in claiming races early in 1999. I think there's a pretty clear distinction betwixt the two.

[Pointg5]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Lots of horses need to have good showings in their final preps to qualify for the Derby. Smarty had a brilliant 3YO career, I don't think that can be argued. Charismatic - as great as he was - was running in claiming races early in 1999. I think there's a pretty clear distinction betwixt the two.

They had not figured Charismatic out yet, he did run in 2 Graded Stakes before the Lexington Stakes. I liked all three, but to declare one had a better season than the others, is revisionist history...

[slotdirt]

Originally Posted by Pointg5

They had not figured Charismatic out yet, he did run in 2 Graded Stakes before the Lexington Stakes. I liked all three, but to declare one had a better season than the others, is revisionist history...

Do you really think it was? I guess we can look at the competition in the various seasons in which they ran. Some of the best horses Charismatic beat in his Derby year were Lemon Drop Kid, Menifee, Cat Thief, Prime Timber, and Stephen Got Even, to name a few. Meanwhile, Smarty beat Castledale, Rock Hard Ten, Lion Heart, Limehouse, Borrego, Eddington, and Pollard's Vision, not to mention Birdstone and others.

Based on that, I'd still go with Smarty - and I'm not sure it's even that close. Charismatic was a wonderful animal and a great story, but certainly not in the same league as Smarty Jones.

[Pointg5]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Do you really think it was? I guess we can look at the competition in the various seasons in which they ran. Some of the best horses Charismatic beat in his Derby year were Lemon Drop Kid, Menifee, Cat Thief, Prime Timber, and Stephen Got Even, to name a few. Meanwhile, Smarty beat Castledale, Rock Hard Ten, Lion Heart, Limehouse, Borrego, Eddington, and Pollard's Vision, not to mention Birdstone and others.

Based on that, I'd still go with Smarty - and I'm not sure it's even that close. Charismatic was a wonderful animal and a great story, but certainly not in the same league as Smarty Jones.

Okay, now these statements are in the same league as something Rockhead would say:

Let's see:
LDK-Won the Belmont, Travers, and a bunch of stakes his 4yo year
Menifee-Won the Blue Grass and Haskell, then retired
Cat Thief-Breeders Cup Classic Winner, also won one of the Strub
Prime Timber-I believe was hurt and retired after the Derby
General Challenge-Won the Pacific Classic as a 3yo and the Big Cap

Geez, Slot are you done with me blitzkrieging that theory? Really, this is revisionist history to say that AA and SJ were so much better, just look at the facts.

There are so many things to consider here. First off Alex was a very very good horse. But also keep in mind that he was running in the MRLS year. The competition was diluted to say the least. But he still won and he looked good doing it.

In my opinion, The Breeders Cup is bad for racing when you look at older horses. Also too much emphasis is put on a Breeders Cup win for older horses. This is why we only see the best older horses racing 5 times a year. Without the Breeders Cup we would see more and more older horses running earlier in the year.

Horse of the Year is a joke of an award. I have been sour on the award ever since Favorite Trick won the award.

IMO Alex wouldnt have even come close to St Liam in the Classic. In fact, I dont think he would have been Flower Alley. I would even go as far as saying that 3 year olds should not be running against older horses.

[slotdirt]

Originally Posted by Pointg5

Okay, now these statements are in the same league as something Rockhead would say:

Let's see:
LDK-Won the Belmont, Travers, and a bunch of stakes his 4yo year
Menifee-Won the Blue Grass and Haskell, then retired
Cat Thief-Breeders Cup Classic Winner, also won one of the Strub
Prime Timber-I believe was hurt and retired after the Derby
General Challenge-Won the Pacific Classic as a 3yo and the Big Cap

Geez, Slot are you done with me blitzkrieging that theory? Really, this is revisionist history to say that AA and SJ were so much better, just look at the facts.

Come on, Mace, I wasn't saying that those guys weren't great horses, but I much prefer the exploits of Rock Hard Ten, Eddington, and Castledale, that's all I'm saying. No need to go the blockheadd route with me.

I think the bottom line for me is that of the two horses I saw with my own two eyes - Smarty was the better racehorse.

[Pointg5]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Come on, Mace, I wasn't saying that those guys weren't great horses, but I much prefer the exploits of Rock Hard Ten, Eddington, and Castledale, that's all I'm saying. No need to go the blockheadd route with me.

I think the bottom line for me is that of the two horses I saw with my own two eyes - Smarty was the better racehorse.

Okay, I'll leave the nitwit out of it, I shouldn't have said that...

I would say that Charismatic faced better competition and he would have won the Triple Crown, had he not broken down. SJ ran a monster Belmont, but he still lost racing, Charismatic lost because of injury, don't forget he was up on a hot pace as well.

I did not see Smarty race in person, but I saw Charismatic twice, his Lexington Stakes victory was very impressive....

Originally Posted by Pointg5

Okay, I'll leave the nitwit out of it, I shouldn't have said that...

I would say that Charismatic faced better competition and he would have won the Triple Crown, had he not broken down. SJ ran a monster Belmont, but he still lost racing, Charismatic lost because of injury, don't forget he was up on a hot pace as well.

I did not see Smarty race in person, but I saw Charismatic twice, his Lexington Stakes victory was very impressive....

TCharismatic was already a beaten horse before the injury occured.

[Pointg5]

Originally Posted by eurobounce

TCharismatic was already a beaten horse before the injury occured.

Really, he lost the race on the turn for home?
That's where I heard the injury happened...

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Pointg5

How many of those were graded? People forget that Smarty needed to win or place in the Arkansas Derby to even qualify for the Kentucky Derby.

They both had the same # of graded stakes wins and they both won the Derby, the Preakness, and their last Derby prep. So in that way they are the same, and some other criteria must be used. Outside of those races, Smarty Jones won 3 stakes races and Charismatic won zero. Were races like the Southwest graded? No, but I am willing to bet that it was a better race than the claiming races that Charismatic was competing in.
Now maybe you are right and that wasn't his fault and his connections just hadn't figured him out. But in judging something like HOY you have to go with the results on the track and you can't realistically say that Smarty didn't have a better year overall. He accomplished everything that Char did, + more. Maybe it wasn't a ton more, but it was more nonetheless. Therefore he had a better overall year than Char. If you look at wins, stakes wins, $ earned, overall record....Smarty beats him in all of those things. To me that makes for a better year.

[Pointg5]

Originally Posted by miraja2

They both had the same # of graded stakes wins and they both won the Derby, the Preakness, and their last Derby prep. So in that way they are the same, and some other criteria must be used. Outside of those races, Smarty Jones won 3 stakes races and Charismatic won zero. Were races like the Southwest graded? No, but I am willing to bet that it was a better race than the claiming races that Charismatic was competing in.
Now maybe you are right and that wasn't his fault and his connections just hadn't figured him out. But in judging something like HOY you have to go with the results on the track and you can't realistically say that Smarty didn't have a better year overall. He accomplished everything that Char did, + more. Maybe it wasn't a ton more, but it was more nonetheless. Therefore he had a better overall year than Char. If you look at wins, stakes wins, $ earned, overall record....Smarty beats him in all of those things. To me that makes for a better year.

Charismatic ran in the SA Derby as well...

How can you include overall wins for a HOY? I believe the criteria the committe would use would be Graded Stakes, that they are equal...

Originally Posted by Pointg5

Really, he lost the race on the turn for home?
That's where I heard the injury happened...

Now I have never heard that before.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Pointg5

Charismatic ran in the SA Derby as well...

How can you include overall wins for a HOY? I believe the criteria the committe would use would be Graded Stakes, that they are equal...

He ran in the SA Derby huh? Well how did he finish?

Smarty Jones won more stakes races and earned more money than Charismatic. Based on that criteria I would say he had a better year. I ask you, is there any criteria in which one could argue that Charismatic had a better year?

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by boldruler

The HOY is basically given to the BC Classic winner unless a 3yr old can win the TC. Afleet Alex couldn't beat Giacomo in the big one so it is hard to give him HOY over the older horses.

He got what he deserved, the 3YO Eclipse, but personally I don't think he would have beaten Saint Liam even had he not gotten hurt. The 3yr olds were just a terrible group that year, so beating them doesn't really count for much in the HOY race.

No knock on AA, but he beat garbage in the Preakness and Belmont. Scrappy T and Giacomo were nothing special, and the Belmont was so bad a maiden ran third.

Nolan's Cat may have been a maiden, but he's definitely not what I would call garbage.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Pointg5

Charismatic ran in the SA Derby as well...

How can you include overall wins for a HOY? I believe the criteria the committe would use would be Graded Stakes, that they are equal...

Well if you want to get technical about it they were not equal in graded stakes. Smarty Jones finished second in the graded stakes race he didn't win, while Charasmatic finished third.
Obviously graded stakes victories is probably the most important criteria used in determining HOY. But if all things are equal in that category - as they are here - other criteria are used. Criteria like total stakes won, money earned, finishes in other graded stakes races etc. In ALL of those categories SJ is better than Char.