Worth a Thought?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I didn't mean any of it in a bad way. Raising people's ire while inciting a discussion is a good thing.

I don't really agree.....as the good Commentator, so to speak, didn't show up. Believe me, I have problems with both Curlin ( this year ) and Big Brown, but each ran races better than anything Einstein ran. Big Brown's Florida Derby and KY Derby easily eclipsed anything Einstein did, and they were BIG races, and Curlin's Dubai World Cup, Woodward and Jockey Club were all better races. Frankly, I'm not sure any race Einstein ran on the turf compared particularly favorably to his second in the Man o War. Maybe his 2nd at Keeneland to the perfect trip fraud Kip Deville.

See, I agree with you that both of them ran better races than Einstein's best race. I agree on Curlin's Dubai race but I think the Woodward and JCGC were mediocre. The Foster was better for me and he just so happened to toy with Einstein in that race. Curlin's grass race may have been better than all of Einstein's races too although if pressed, I'd probably go with Einstein at Keeneland as well. For these reasons, Curlin would be placed higher on my ballot than Einstein would be. So would Big Brown. So would Zenyatta. So would Raven's Pass, who would get my top vote. Commentator also would have been placed ahead of him until last weekend.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Who cares about the name of the races?

Originally Posted by King Glorious

So a couple of inches the other way and he's a Travers winner and fits in the Clark

Nothing if inconsistent.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

2nd San Pasqual G2 to Zappa, defeating Heatseeker (Santa Anita G1 et al), Arson Squad (Meadowlands Cup G2), Molengoa (Mervyn LeRoy G2)

1st San Antonio G2 defeating Heatseeker (Santa Anita G1 et al), Awesome Gem (3rd BC Classic G1), Zappa (San Pasqual G2 et al), Big Booster (San Juan Capistrano G2 et al), Student Council (Pimlico Special G1)

3rd Dubai World Cup G1 to Curlin, Asiatic Boy defeating A.P. Arrow (Clark G1)

1st San Diego G2 defeating Surf Cat (San Carlos G2 et al.), Rebellion (Commonwealth G2 et al), Global Hunter

2nd Pacific Classic G1 to Go Between, defeating Mast Track (Hollywood Gold Cup G1), Student Council (Pimlico Special G1), Surf Cat (San Carlos G2 et al), Delosvientos (Brooklyn G2 et al), Awesome Gem, Zappa (San Pasqual G2 et al)

1st Goodwood G1 defeating Tiago (Oaklawn G2), Albertus Maximus (BC Dirt Mile et al), Surf Cat (Mervyn LeRoy G2 et al), Mast Track (Hollywood Gold Cup G1), Spirit One (Arlington Million G1T), Tres Barrachos (Swaps G2), Zappa (San Pasqual G2 et al)

Synthetic results can be used to enhance a horse's record if a horse has a good dirt or grass record. When they are the ONLY surface a horse has enjoyed success on, they are pretty meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Nothing if inconsistent.

You know exactly what that argument was and why that statement was made. Taking it out of context here is not necessary.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Synthetic results can be used to enhance a horse's record if a horse has a good dirt or grass record. When they are the ONLY surface a horse has enjoyed success on, they are pretty meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

Note that Heatseeker, Tiago, Student Council, Surf Cat, Rebellion, have all shown top form on both conventional dirt and synthetic surfaces in graded stakes company.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Note that Heatseeker, Tiago, Student Council, Surf Cat, Rebellion, have all shown top form on both conventional dirt and synthetic surfaces in graded stakes company.

And when did Curlin beat them? He didn't. He beat Well Armed and that's the horse we are talking about. Nobody is debating whether or not Well Armed is a top synthetic horse. He beat him on dirt though and Well Armed is far, far from being the same horse on dirt as he is on synthetic.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

You know exactly what that argument was and why that statement was made. Taking it out of context here is not necessary.

It's all relative. Depends on which way you are looking at this thread (ie seriously or jokingly), Einstein.

[letswastemoney]

Give HOY to Zenyatta

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

It's all relative. Depends on which way you are looking at this thread (ie seriously or jokingly), Einstein.

Seriously. Einstein wasn't the best performer this year in any individual area. He didn't run the fastest race. He didn't win the biggest race. He didn't beat the best field. There are maybe 10 or more horses in this country that are better than him. But they all didn't have seasons that were better than him in terms of combining winning good races, beating good horses, showing versatility, and doing it from the start of the year to the end.

[TheSpyder]

Peppers Pride should be horse of the year clearly

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Nobody is debating whether or not Well Armed is a top synthetic horse. He beat him on dirt though and Well Armed is far, far from being the same horse on dirt as he is on synthetic.

What makes you say that? Well Armed ran but once on the dirt this year and got beat (like Einstein) by a horse unbeaten in his last 7 main track starts.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

What makes you say that? Well Armed ran but once on the dirt this year and got beat (like Einstein) by a horse unbeaten in his last 7 main track starts.

He also stunk up the place a couple of times in Dubai. He was 9th, beaten 16 lengths in the UAE 2000 Guineas and 11th, beaten 26 in the UAE Derby.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

He also stunk up the place a couple of times in Dubai. He was 9th, beaten 16 lengths in the UAE 2000 Guineas and 11th, beaten 26 in the UAE Derby.

Never mind that those races were over 2 years ago...oh...and he was almost put down a week after the UAE Derby cuz they had been running him with a broken pelvis (he actually crushed in his first Dubai start IIRC).

More field trials are needed to test the hypothesis, Professor.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Never mind that those races were over 2 years ago...oh...and he was almost put down a week after the UAE Derby cuz they had been running him with a broken pelvis (he actually crushed in his first Dubai start IIRC).

More field trials are needed to test the hypothesis, Professor.

My mistake. Since Brianspencer tried to trump up the exploits of Red Rocks being a BC Turf champion when talking about who Curlin ran second to and that was two years ago, I thought that was what we were supposed to do.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

My mistake. Since Brianspencer tried to trump up the exploits of Red Rocks being a BC Turf champion when talking about who Curlin ran second to and that was two years ago, I thought that was what we were supposed to do.

Bring up all the ancient races you want, but at least bring up races indicative of a horse's true talent.

No one is throwing the 2007 Dixie Stakes in your face.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

My mistake. Since Brianspencer tried to trump up the exploits of Red Rocks being a BC Turf champion when talking about who Curlin ran second to and that was two years ago, I thought that was what we were supposed to do.

Good try, but you know that using my Red Rocks statement to justify what you said is utterly disingenuous.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Good try, but you know that using my Red Rocks statement to justify what you said is utterly disingenuous.

You are right.

[AeWingnut]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Really?



Which is why you see owners all clamoring just as badly to win a high-end money allowance that looks more like a Grade II as they do to win the Kentucky Derby.

Or why people would rather win the Dubai World Cup than the Clark Handicap.

Or why people would rather win the Jockey Club Gold Cup than the Gulfstream Park Handicap.

So, to answer your question more succinctly -- um, everyone.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Really?



Which is why you see owners all clamoring just as badly to win a high-end money allowance that looks more like a Grade II as they do to win the Kentucky Derby.

Or why people would rather win the Dubai World Cup than the Clark Handicap.

Or why people would rather win the Jockey Club Gold Cup than the Gulfstream Park Handicap.

So, to answer your question more succinctly -- um, everyone.

In general, you are correct. On a regular basis, the races you named are going to be big races. They will attract the best fields and be highly coveted prizes. But it won't always be the case where those races will turn out to be the BEST races and 2008 is a prime example of that. Was the 2003 JCGC where Mineshaft beat Quest and Evening Attire a better race than the Kentucky Cup Classic where Perfect Drift beat Congaree? No. It happens sometimes. I remember back in 1988, a friend of mine and I happened to be at Hollywood Park during the middle of the week. They were running a first level allowance race on the card for 2yo's. The 1-2 finishers in that race were Houston and Sunday Silence. That was actually the best 2yo race I saw that year.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

You know exactly what that argument was and why that statement was made. Taking it out of context here is not necessary.

LOL!!!

Now that is delightful!