Big Brown and Winstrol....questions

[pgiaco]

Originally Posted by zippyneedsawin

I bet Big Brown can throw a 100 MPH fastball.

Hellacious splitter too.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by rontheman1964

Ok, we now know this horse is being injected with a legal steroid (winstrol) on the 15th of every month. Besides the obvious muscle growth this steroid promotes; is anyone worried about possible side effects down the road?

Does anyone on this board know how common is it to give steroids to horses as part of their normal routine? (not to heal an injury) Do all of Dutrow's horses get winstrol? Is it expensive?

If he breaks down on the track do we question why steroids are legal for equine athletes in 28 of the 38 states? (too much 'manufactured' muscle for his skeleton and tendons to support.)

If he wins the Triple Crown do we put an asterisk next to his name like Barry Bonds?

Just asking some questions about this sport where people (some good some bad) get to make the decisions for the equine athletes.

You have to be very careful about giving steroids to fillies, if you are planning on breeding the fillies after they retire. Steroids can lessen their chances of being able to get in foal.

[sumitas]

The race horses are juiced up steroid freaks. At all ages it seems. From the sales to the track. Put a big * next to these horses in the steroid era.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by sumitas

The race horses are juiced up steroid freaks. At all ages it seems. From the sales to the track. Put a big * next to these horses in the steroid era.

So, in other words, most of the performers for the last 30 years or so?

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Kasept

So, in other words, most of the performers for the last 30 years or so?

I don't think there were many guys using steroids in the 1980s. There were a few, but not many. I think it's been the last 15 years or so that the usage has gone up 10x. D Wayne was one of the only guys using steroids in the 1980s and it gave him a big edge, especially with his 2 year olds, who were as mature as 3 year olds due to the steroids.

Right now, I wouldn't even say that the majority of horses are on steroids. I get all of our vet bills and we use about 7 different trainers. Most of our trainers rarely use steroids.

Right now there are some trainers out there who just automatically put all of their horses on a regular steroid regimen. I couldn't tell you exactly what percentage of trainers do that, but my guess would be about 30%. I'm not a big fan of guys who do that. Steroids are not going to help every horse. It depends on the horse. Steroids can move some horses way up, but it can make other horses much worse.

[TheSpyder]

Thanks for the view from the inside RP. Nice to hear some facts for a change.

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I don't think there were many guys using steroids in the 1980s. There were a few, but not many. I think it's been the last 15 years or so that the usage has gone up 10x. D Wayne was one of the only guys using steroids in the 1980s and it gave him a big edge, especially with his 2 year olds, who were as mature as 3 year olds due to the steroids.

Right now, I wouldn't even say that the majority of horses are on steroids. I get all of our vet bills and we use about 7 different trainers. Most of our trainers rarely use steroids.

Right now there are some trainers out there who just automatically put all of their horses on a regular steroid regimen. I couldn't tell you exactly what percentage of trainers do that, but my guess would be about 30%. I'm not a big fan of guys who do that. Steroids are not going to help every horse. It depends on the horse. Steroids can move some horses way up, but it can make other horses much worse.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Right now there are some trainers out there who just automatically put all of their horses on a regular steroid regimen. I couldn't tell you exactly what percentage of trainers do that, but my guess would be about 30%.

The number I hear is typically about twice that.. Areas of the country preparing to come off steroid programs will certainly be ahead of the curve in ending treatment with it.. It's days are numbered obviously, but I find it laughable that it's being used as the magic cure for 'drugs in racing'. The steroids aren't the problem...

[Honu]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I don't think there were many guys using steroids in the 1980s. There were a few, but not many. I think it's been the last 15 years or so that the usage has gone up 10x. D Wayne was one of the only guys using steroids in the 1980s and it gave him a big edge, especially with his 2 year olds, who were as mature as 3 year olds due to the steroids.

Right now, I wouldn't even say that the majority of horses are on steroids. I get all of our vet bills and we use about 7 different trainers. Most of our trainers rarely use steroids.

Right now there are some trainers out there who just automatically put all of their horses on a regular steroid regimen. I couldn't tell you exactly what percentage of trainers do that, but my guess would be about 30%. I'm not a big fan of guys who do that. Steroids are not going to help every horse. It depends on the horse. Steroids can move some horses way up, but it can make other horses much worse.

Many big guys in the 80's Rup. but even that would be hard to prove ,I can remember back as far as the late 70's people around the track using steroids at places called Waterford Park , Penn National , Commodore Downs, very cheap tracks with very cheap horses and most trainers did their own vet work.
I really dont have an issue with using a lil steroids here and there preferibly Winstrol over Equipoise , Equipoise has a very dramatic effect on a horses demeaner while Winstrol doesnt and does help with getting horses to eat .
Thankfully I work for someone who hardly ever uses steroids at all , but as long as it is legal I dont see why it should put any kind of a notation next to a horses name , because believe me Big Brown has enough natural talent to win on jellybeans.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

You have to be very careful about giving steroids to fillies, if you are planning on breeding the fillies after they retire. Steroids can lessen their chances of being able to get in foal.

Note the connection to D Wayne- basically ALL of his champion fillies had problems/complications in breeding. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out why.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by philcski

Note the connection to D Wayne- basically ALL of his champion fillies had problems/complications in breeding. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out why.

Exactly.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by philcski

Note the connection to D Wayne- basically ALL of his champion fillies had problems/complications in breeding. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out why.

They did?

He trained three champion females in the 90's:

Flanders: Dam of 4 time Grade 1 winner and $1.8 million earner Surfside.

Serena's Song: Dam of 5 stake horses including Group 1 winner Sophisticat and Grade 2 winners Harlington and Grand Reward.

Golden Attraction: Dam of a stakes winner - and two other horses who are Graded Stakes placed.

His champs in the 80's:

Althea: Dam of 4 different group or Graded Stakes winners.

Family Style: Dam of stakes winner Polish Style

Lady's Secret: Lousy producer in terms of quality - however several of her offspring sold very well.

Landaluce: Never made it into the shed

Life's Magic: Dam of three different horses who earned blacktype

Open Mind: She had problems - only two foals - one of which was 4-2-1-0 and made 300K in Japan

Sacahuista: Dam of Group 1 winning millionaire Ekaraar as well as productive race horse and stallion Hussonet

Winning Colors: Dam of millionaire acution purchase Golden Colors who was 3-for-10 and made over 500K in Japan. Several of hers also sold well - including a $2.5 million Broad Brush dud.

Lukas also trained the excellent top class race mare Terlingua in the early 80's - she was the dam of Storm Cat.

[Danzig]

i'd really appreciate if people would NOT interject these facts to clutter up peoples' perfectly nice threads.

[VOL JACK]

Drugs is on the muscle!!!!!

Reminds me of my wife, I say one thing, she comes back with ten reasons why I am wrong.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

They did?

He trained three champion females in the 90's:

Flanders: Dam of 4 time Grade 1 winner and $1.8 million earner Surfside.

Serena's Song: Dam of 5 stake horses including Group 1 winner Sophisticat and Grade 2 winners Harlington and Grand Reward.

Golden Attraction: Dam of a stakes winner - and two other horses who are Graded Stakes placed.

His champs in the 80's:

Althea: Dam of 4 different group or Graded Stakes winners.

Family Style: Dam of stakes winner Polish Style

Lady's Secret: Lousy producer in terms of quality - however several of her offspring sold very well.

Landaluce: Never made it into the shed

Life's Magic: Dam of three different horses who earned blacktype

Open Mind: She had problems - only two foals - one of which was 4-2-1-0 and made 300K in Japan

Sacahuista: Dam of Group 1 winning millionaire Ekaraar as well as productive race horse and stallion Hussonet

Winning Colors: Dam of millionaire acution purchase Golden Colors who was 3-for-10 and made over 500K in Japan. Several of hers also sold well - including a $2.5 million Broad Brush dud.

Lukas also trained the excellent top class race mare Terlingua in the early 80's - she was the dam of Storm Cat.

So are you saying that all his fillies could walk right off the track and be bred a month or two later with no problem?

[letswastemoney]

just because something is legal doesnt make it right

[philcski]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

They did?

He trained three champion females in the 90's:

Flanders: Dam of 4 time Grade 1 winner and $1.8 million earner Surfside.

Serena's Song: Dam of 5 stake horses including Group 1 winner Sophisticat and Grade 2 winners Harlington and Grand Reward.

Golden Attraction: Dam of a stakes winner - and two other horses who are Graded Stakes placed.

His champs in the 80's:

Althea: Dam of 4 different group or Graded Stakes winners.

Family Style: Dam of stakes winner Polish Style

Lady's Secret: Lousy producer in terms of quality - however several of her offspring sold very well.

Landaluce: Never made it into the shed

Life's Magic: Dam of three different horses who earned blacktype

Open Mind: She had problems - only two foals - one of which was 4-2-1-0 and made 300K in Japan

Sacahuista: Dam of Group 1 winning millionaire Ekaraar as well as productive race horse and stallion Hussonet

Winning Colors: Dam of millionaire acution purchase Golden Colors who was 3-for-10 and made over 500K in Japan. Several of hers also sold well - including a $2.5 million Broad Brush dud.

Lukas also trained the excellent top class race mare Terlingua in the early 80's - she was the dam of Storm Cat.

Note I didn't say POOR producers, but rather difficulties in impregnation (this information coming from the stallion manager at Lanes End.)

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by philcski

Note I didn't say POOR producers, but rather difficulties in impregnation (this information coming from the stallion manager at Lanes End.)

I believe every single one of those champion female horses he trained had their first foal in the first season they were covered.

Did all of them catch on the very first cover? How would I know ... however, all of them did their job and produced a foal...and in some cases very good ones.

It's not like broodmares catch every cover.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by philcski

Note I didn't say POOR producers, but rather difficulties in impregnation (this information coming from the stallion manager at Lanes End.)

I guess one might wonder how many of those mares were actually went to Lane's End to be bred? DWL has always been an easy "target" as well. Who really knows the truth, although in this business, depending on how close to the real source and origin, there's often a lot more stories than truth.

I remember hearing nonsense and BS that every insurance company writing coverage would decline coverage if the horse was trained by DWL. I then had people say "yeah, I heard that too" and "yes that's true, my friend knows _______ and he told me" and all that.

As far as the winstrol issue -- the media, the propaganda claims about Dutrow "admitting" and all that. Like many of us know -- all horn no drivetrain. It's a legal drug and part of today's game. Move on. The aspect of effects, ramfications, what % are and aren't, etc. -- those are very valid and important discussions. Perhaps it's just as simple as ban it, then have complete and total random testing -- non-raceday testing, 365 days a year. On the other hand, either ban it or it's part of the game.

Eric