California Synthetic

[Honu]

Originally Posted by sumitas

Honu, I've missed your posts and am gald to hear from you. If the track is draining great now, why will it be replaced ? I do understand that it will not hold up as is. I certainly support another, porperly installed aw surface. As Joe Harper of Del Mar said in bloodhorse, "I'll take a 70% reduction in fatalities."

Well I think they want to replace it so they can get the crap that the Cushion Track people put down out......I wholeheartdly agree that they should give the Aussie man the job of putting in the new surface.
The CHRB webcast of the meeting they had was very informative if you get a chance watch it.

[GPK]

Originally Posted by Honu

Well I think they want to replace it so they can get the crap that the Cushion Track people put down out......I wholeheartdly agree that they should give the Aussie man the job of putting in the new surface.
The CHRB webcast of the meeting they had was very informative if you get a chance watch it.

Honu....I have missed your posts too....



































well...not really

[The Bid]

Sumitas, Im sure California will take your opinion into account when deciding what surface to install. If you are okay with an all weather lets just squash this topic now

Honu, how uneven has the track been. Regards

[Honu]

Originally Posted by The Bid

Sumitas, Im sure California will take your opinion into account when deciding what surface to install. If you are okay with an all weather lets just squash this topic now

Honu, how uneven has the track been. Regards

The track really feels great , has alot of bounce to it , I like it .
The only day it was uneven was that day that they stalled the races to power harrow it and I think that the trackman realized taht he is going to have to harrow more than he thought.

[sumitas]

Bid, According to bloodhorse, and I'm sure Honu's link will verify that, the majority of people at the hearing supported all weather. I guess I'm one of the many instead of one of the few obstructionists like yourself. But I admire your courage for standing in the way of an avalanche.

Originally Posted by sumitas

According to bloodhorse, and I'm sure Honu's link will verify that, the majority of people at the hearing supported all weather. I guess I'm one of the many instead of one of the few.

[The Bid]

Youre just one that doesnt know any better Sumitas, I dont personally hold it against you. You believe what you hear, as opposed to actually having any first hand experience.

I think Shapiro now wanting to "keep an open mind" towards dirt speaks volumes.

[tiggerv]

In my opinion the surface right now is unplayable as a handicapper. There is nothing consistent on how it plays day to day. I don't know if it is the weather or the maintenance or other but they can't seem to put together a consistent playing surface. Every track has moderate changes in bias but nothing as extreme as SA. Del Mar may not have been a "fair" track but at least it was consistent and betable. I am not anti-synthetic either, I am just anti-whatever crap surface is down right now.

Thank god Shapiro is willing to be open to dirt because there aren't a lot of options out there. Cushion track is obviously out. I would be shocked if they put Polytrack down after what they dealt with at Del Mar. I don't know if you can make an accurate assessment of Pro Ride based on the current surface but the current track is obviously crap if they are going to pull it out. I guess they are left with Tapeta, Pro Ride and dirt.

[Honu]

Originally Posted by The Bid

Youre just one that doesnt know any better Sumitas, I dont personally hold it against you. You believe what you hear, as opposed to actually having any first hand experience.

I think Shapiro now wanting to "keep an open mind" towards dirt speaks volumes.

Im sure Shapiro does , given the fact that Cushion Track screwed up and he is getting so much heat from everywhere.
You cant dispute the experiments that have been conducted with horses concerning how much impact is put on their legs on the 3 diffirent surfaces , Polytrack , Dirt and Turf if you watch the CHRB webcast you can see there is a substantial diffirence between how hard a horse hits the ground on the three. The most suprising to me and I think it will be to alot of folks when they see the video and the charts that Turf is not the kindest surface when gauging impact on a horses leg ,Polytrack is much kinder and Dirt is second.

[Danzig]

and yet a study that got all kinds of press a couple years ago found that turf was kinder to horses than dirt. so how can that have changed?

[Honu]

Originally Posted by Danzig

and yet a study that got all kinds of press a couple years ago found that turf was kinder to horses than dirt. so how can that have changed?

I can only tell you what the data showed in that webcast, they had a aparatus strapped to the horses legs , they galloped it on dirt polly and turf, and then processed the data and put it onto a chart.
You should see the amount of slippage that occures when a horse is running on turf, its hoof actually slips , stops and slips again, its amazing that they dont break all there legs off when they run.

[Danzig]

and i also read that the way synthetic reacts to a horses movement is different than dirt, and explains why there are many more hind end injuries than what was seen on dirt, which supposedly caused more front end injuries.

so are there less injuries?


overall, based on percentages, they said that turf showed to be a safer surface than dirt in that study.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by Danzig

and i also read that the way synthetic reacts to a horses movement is different than dirt, and explains why there are many more hind end injuries than what was seen on dirt, which supposedly caused more front end injuries.

so are there less injuries?


overall, based on percentages, they said that turf showed to be a safer surface than dirt in that study.

Are there more hind end injuries with the synthetic surfaces? That is not what I used to hear, so correct me if I am wrong on this. I don't know about Santa Anita because I know that track is a mess right now, but from what I remember, a lot of the horsemen were very happy with Hollywood Park and Del Mar after the installation of synthetic as far as safety went.

The dirt Cali. tracks were horrible on horses before the installation of the synthetic surfaces. The trainers said they couldn't give the horses a workout without them coming back puffy or sore. If I'm not mistaken, that was the reason that Cali. switched to synthetic in the first place.

[The Bid]

You are wrong

Cali switched to sneakers and paper mache because some moron mandated it be done. Now that same moron wants to keep an open mind to putting down a new dirt and a new base.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by The Bid

Cali switched to sneakers and paper mache because someone mandated it be done. Now that same person wants to keep an open mind to putting down a new dirt and a new base.

Well that is general knowledge at this point.

Wasn't the reason that he mandated it in large part due to the numbers of injuries, breakdowns, and trying to get larger fields of horses?

[Danzig]

Shirreffs, who stables at Hollywood, said that he sees more hind-end injuries, hoof bruises, and gravels.


Trainer William J. Morey Jr. said his horses have experienced “more hind-end problems” on the new surface (golden gate)


Have you found a reduction in one type of injury but an increase in another type, say, fewer chipped bones but more hind-end problems?

A: We just haven’t had that experience. Perhaps it is because we (in Australia) are turf racing and not dirt racing. There’s an argument over here to say that horses bred for running on dirt are more on the forehand. I think there’s something in putting dirt horses on synthetic tracks. I think it’s going to take a little bit of time because (horsemen may) have to change their training techniques.

When asked about undocumented reports that horses racing on synthetic surfaces are having more hind-end injuries, Dickinson said: “The tensile strength of the fibers used in Tapeta was specifically designed and selected for stability for a horse’s hind end.”


each of those above is from a different article...just a few i found right off. it's something i've seen mentioned more than once in various bloodhorse articles--and it seems it was something that dickinson looked into solving with his tapeta...

[The Bid]

Youll have to call that buffoon and ask him why he mandated it. Probably because he doesnt have a clue what hes doing. He should have consulted with Sumitas prior to mandate

[Danzig]

i also read tho, that they new they needed resurfacing, and there was a lack of good dirt on the west coast.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i also read tho, that they new they needed resurfacing, and there was a lack of good dirt on the west coast.

The reason that I know that about the horrible dirt surface in Cali before synthetic is because someone I know is closely associated with a lot of the big guys in racing out on the west coast. Wish he would pipe in on this thread because a lot of these questions would get answered.

Shirreffs is one of the good guys in racing, and is a terrific, conservative trainer. If he says that there are more hind-end injuries, then that is more than likely the case. I trust his judgment.

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

The reason that I know that about the horrible dirt surface in Cali before synthetic is because someone I know is closely associated with a lot of the big guys in racing out on the west coast. Wish he would pipe in on this thread because a lot of these questions would get answered.

Shirreffs is one of the good guys in racing, and is a terrific, conservative trainer. If he says that there are more hind-end injuries, then that is more than likely the case. I trust his judgment.

You're so connected. Can I have your autograph?