Kidd to Mavs

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I think you are a little bit off here. When Ewing came into the league, people thought he'd be a defensive star more than offensive. It was his offense that ended up surprising people but his rebounding numbers were often criticized because they weren't where people thought they should be. He also was not even close to being the best defensive center of his era. Better than Olajuwon or Robinson or Mutombo? Seriously?

Times voted as defensive player of the year:
Ewing-0
Robinson-1
Mutombo-4
Olajuwon-2

Times on the NBA all defensive team 1st/2nd:
Ewing-0/3
Robinson 4/4
Mutombo 3/3
Olajuwon-5/4

Times in the top five in blocks per game:
Ewing-5 times (0 times led the league)
Robinson-7 (1)
Mutombo-10 (5)
Olajuwon-12 (3)

Times in the top five in rebounds per game:
Ewing-4 (0 times led the league)
Robinson-5 (1)
Mutombo-9 (2)
Olajuwon-7 (2)

Rebounds are not a defensive stat. Ewing was the best post defender in the NBA during his 1st 7 or 8 years. There has always been a bias against this guy for whatever reason, including the writers who vote on those awards. He was a tremendous player who was easily as good defensively as any of those other guys. Olajuwan was more athletic but took lots of plays off. Mutombo was just long. He could never get further than 8 feet away from the basket without being a liability. Robinson was a great player and a nice guy but if you watched the NBA during the late 80's and early 90's and thought that he was a better all around defender than Ewing, you just didnt watch enough. There is more to defense at the center position than simple shots blocked.

Ewing is one of the best centers of all time. To say he is overrated is laughable.

Look how well the Knicks have done since he retired. That should speak volumes about his contribution to them and the game.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Rebounds are not a defensive stat. Ewing was the best post defender in the NBA during his 1st 7 or 8 years. There has always been a bias against this guy for whatever reason, including the writers who vote on those awards. He was a tremendous player who was easily as good defensively as any of those other guys. Olajuwan was more athletic but took lots of plays off. Mutombo was just long. He could never get further than 8 feet away from the basket without being a liability. Robinson was a great player and a nice guy but if you watched the NBA during the late 80's and early 90's and thought that he was a better all around defender than Ewing, you just didnt watch enough. There is more to defense at the center position than simple shots blocked.

Yep.
People did not watch enough Robinson.
He was not on TV consistently.
Ewing was always on TV in college
and then everyone followed in the pros.
Robinson was unknown in college until his
senior season. Got very little press.

He is remembered mostly for being torched
by Hakeem in the playoffs. Robinson was a good
on the ball and off the ball defender. Tons better
than Ewing.

Ewing played for the Knicks. The Knicks are in NY.
A very good player but overrated.

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

Ewing is one of the best centers of all time. To say he is overrated is laughable.

Look how well the Knicks have done since he retired. That should speak volumes about his contribution to them and the game.

OMG.
A bit of a time sequence skipped.

So of the guys mentioned:
Robinson
Moses Malone
Hakeem
Duncan

Which of these was Ewing better than?

And then of course we can add other centers
like Jabbar etc... Ewing is down the line.

So that short list doesn't make him one of the greatest of all time?
Duncan is a power forward.

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

So that short list doesn't make him one of the greatest of all time?
Duncan is a power forward.

Russell
Chamberlain
Jabbar
Walton
ONeill
Mikan (really too old to do but relative to others)
above in no order. So Ewing might make the top 10.
If Yao holds up, Howard... he moves further down.
I just think Ewing's college career is overlapped
with his pro career. He might be 2nd or third best
college center of all time. Behind Jabbar and possibly
Walton.


The NBA listed him as a Center until
the Spurs protested that Yao would
get all the votes and Duncan would
not get a start.
He is a Center. Oberto is a power forward.
Duncan played Center when Robinson was
really the power forward.

I guess its a matter of how you view the position.
If you mention Barkely, Karl Malone, as some of the
best power forwards, then you have to call Duncan
a Center. Duncan plays closer to the basket and posts
up more than any 7 foot power forward ever. So I call him
a Center.

Twas fun.
I sleep.

[King Glorious]

Ewing is deserving of his spot in the top 50, IMO. I don't think he was better overall than Olajuwon or Robinson though. I don't think he was better defensively either. I do think it's possible that he was overrated a bit though because he played in NY. That happens with a lot of players. I think that had Robinson or Olajuwon played there, they would have been seen as near Gods. Ewing held his own against those guys and is certainly in the conversation but I put him just a bit short.

I absolutely think that rebounds are a defensive statistic. Any coach would agree. And I understand that the rebound numbers and blocked shots don't define how great a defender is. But you would think that if you are going to declare that a guy was the dominant defensive center of his era, there has to be something to back that up besides your opinion. All factual evidence (blocks, rebounds, times named all-defense, and winning defensive player of the year) put him below those three guys I named. I'd even place two-time defensive player of the year Alonzo Mourning over him.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

Ewing is one of the best centers of all time. To say he is overrated is laughable.

Look how well the Knicks have done since he retired. That should speak volumes about his contribution to them and the game.

Laugh away then cause from what I've read in this thread the guy is more overrated than I'd ever imagined. Did you guys just watch Knicks games and never see Olajuwon? In every facet of the game Hakeem was better. Why were the Knicks always better when Ewing was hurt if he was so good?

[blackthroatedwind]

The Ewing hating is really unfortunate. The guy was great and played his ass off every night. This " the Knicks were better when he was hurt " crap is appalling and farcical. In his prime he was an absolute force and only in NY could anybody criticize him.

For twenty years I almost never missed a Knick game, many of them live at the Garden, and now for the past ten years I almost never watch.....and when I do it is to root for them, and their buffoonish leadership of Isaah Thomas and James Dolan, to lose. I only wish they had a player half as great as Patrick Ewing. At least then I could pity the poor victim of this Titanic.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Cardus

You and others are missing the boat on Ewing. He is one of the greatest jump shooting centers of all time, and a fantastic defender.

For a bunch of years, he was the ONLY good thing about the Knicks. He had little help... until Jordan's Bulls got going, unfortunately.

Well apparently a bunch of people are completely missing the boat on Olajuwon.

PPG - Olajuwon leads 21.8 to 21.0
RPG - Olajuwon leads 11.1 to 9.8
BPG - Olajuwon leads 3.1 to 2.4
SPG - Olajuwon leads 1.7 to 1.0
APG - Olajuwon leads 2.5 to 1.9
FG% - Olajuwon leads .512 to .504
Olajuwon was won the MVP, the best Ewing did is 4th
Olajuwon has twice been defensive player of the year, Ewing never was
Olajuwon won rings, Ewing didn't

In no way, shape, or form was Ewing better than or even as good as Olajuwon.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Yep.
People did not watch enough Robinson.
He was not on TV consistently.
Ewing was always on TV in college
and then everyone followed in the pros.
Robinson was unknown in college until his
senior season. Got very little press.

He is remembered mostly for being torched
by Hakeem in the playoffs. Robinson was a good
on the ball and off the ball defender. Tons better
than Ewing.

Ewing played for the Knicks. The Knicks are in NY.
A very good player but overrated.

Ewing was and is actually underrated, not overrated. He could never do enough to satisfy fans and writers as is obvious by your comments. As I said before you may believe that one or two of those other centers are better than him which is very much a possibility. But to say that he is not even in the same class as them is laughable. There were 3 dominant centers during this time frame and Ewing stacks up very nicely against both guys. The expectation level for him was higher than any player during that era. He HAD to be dominant because everybody expected that from him from the time he was a college freshman. Hakeem was considered 2nd fiddle on his own team coming into the NBA and Robinson was kind of a freakshow playing for the Navy. Ewing's teams never won a championship in the NBA but using championships to compare players is folly because of the differences in teammates and coaches. He was not only the offensive cornerstone of the Knicks but was THE key on defense which was the strong suit of the Knicks during that time period. If you watched at all you would know the only reason that they were able to compete at the highest level was because of defense (and thuggery) and Ewing.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Cardus

I am not one of them who is missing the boat on Olajuwon.

Robinson also beat him head to head in every category but rebounds. I don't think anyone here is denying that Ewing belongs in the top 50 NBA players. He was just the 3rd best center of his era so unless people are calling him the 4th best I can't see how he is being underrated.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Defining players in team sports by their "rings" has reached an epedemic level. It's simple-minded.

Basketball is the only sport where it is even remotely possible since one player can have a huge impact. It is amazing though that it is worst in the NFL where players only play on one side of the ball and even on that side of the ball are one of 11 players who must execute for a play to work.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I absolutely think that rebounds are a defensive statistic. Any coach would agree. And I understand that the rebound numbers and blocked shots don't define how great a defender is. But you would think that if you are going to declare that a guy was the dominant defensive center of his era, there has to be something to back that up besides your opinion. All factual evidence (blocks, rebounds, times named all-defense, and winning defensive player of the year) put him below those three guys I named. I'd even place two-time defensive player of the year Alonzo Mourning over him.

I was hoping you would say that. Defensive rebounds are valid not total rebounds as you show. The fact is that Ewing was by far the best defensive rebounder of the era by evidenced of his defensive rebound %. DR% is the percentage of available defensive rebounds a player grabbed while he was on the floor. During the 1990's Ewing was in the top 5 every year except the year he DNQ because he only played 26 games. Hakeem was in the top 5 one time when he was a rookie and as his offense developed his defensive rebounding numbers dropped dramatically. Robinson was never better than 9th and a few years didnt make the top 20. And keep in mind that Ewing played with Oakley for some of that period when Oakley was strictly a rebounder and surely took away opportunities from Ewing.

Defensive awards and teams are nothing but popularity contests much like the Gold Gloves in baseball.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Well apparently a bunch of people are completely missing the boat on Olajuwon.

PPG - Olajuwon leads 21.8 to 21.0
RPG - Olajuwon leads 11.1 to 9.8
BPG - Olajuwon leads 3.1 to 2.4
SPG - Olajuwon leads 1.7 to 1.0
APG - Olajuwon leads 2.5 to 1.9
FG% - Olajuwon leads .512 to .504
Olajuwon was won the MVP, the best Ewing did is 4th
Olajuwon has twice been defensive player of the year, Ewing never was
Olajuwon won rings, Ewing didn't

In no way, shape, or form was Ewing better than or even as good as Olajuwon.

No one is saying that Hakeem wasnt great. But over his whole career he was not as good as Ewing was at the defensive end of the floor. If I had to choose which one was the better overall player I would probably say Hakeem. But the original statement was that Ewing wasnt in the same class as those other guys which is still laughable.

[King Glorious]

Offensively, I go with Olajuwon, Robinson, Ewing, Mourning.

Defensively, I go with Olajuwon, Mutombo, Robinson, Mourning.

Overall, I go with Olajuwon, Robinson, Ewing, Mourning.

I agree with Sniper in that the only way Ewing can be underrated is if you place him under #3. While Ewing may not have been overrated, I do think that if Olajuwon or Robinson had done the things they did in NY, they would have received far more accolades than they did. Look at how highly Ewing is regarded and he never won a title, never won a scoring title, never won an MVP. Imagine how Robinson would have been viewed in NY after he scored 71 and won a scoring title. Imagine how Olajuwon would have been viewed after he won a championship and the MVP.

Ewing was an all-time great player. He WAS the Knicks every bit as much as Jordan was the Bulls or Iverson was the Sixers. To suggest that they could have gotten anywhere near the levels that they go to without him is silly, IMO.

[blackthroatedwind]

The biggest compliment to Olijuwan ( who was absolutely one of the all-time greats ) is that nobody ever says Houston made a mistake when they drafted him ahead of Jordan.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I was hoping you would say that. Defensive rebounds are valid not total rebounds as you show. The fact is that Ewing was by far the best defensive rebounder of the era by evidenced of his defensive rebound %. DR% is the percentage of available defensive rebounds a player grabbed while he was on the floor. During the 1990's Ewing was in the top 5 every year except the year he DNQ because he only played 26 games. Hakeem was in the top 5 one time when he was a rookie and as his offense developed his defensive rebounding numbers dropped dramatically. Robinson was never better than 9th and a few years didnt make the top 20. And keep in mind that Ewing played with Oakley for some of that period when Oakley was strictly a rebounder and surely took away opportunities from Ewing.

Defensive awards and teams are nothing but popularity contests much like the Gold Gloves in baseball.

Still over their careers the difference is less than 1% which can easily be accounted for by having a good rebounding guard like Drexler as a teammate. Ewing had Oakley but Olajuwon also played part of his career with Barkley who stole tons of rebounds. Personally I think the best statistic would be percent of offensive rebounds that the person you are responsible for gets. If Ewing had a perfect boxout everytime and someone else on his team grabbed the rebound then that is far more valuable than what percentage he actually comes up with the rebound. Same with Olajuwon. Unfortunately no such statistic exists that I know of.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Still over their careers the difference is less than 1% which can easily be accounted for by having a good rebounding guard like Drexler as a teammate. Ewing had Oakley but Olajuwon also played part of his career with Barkley who stole tons of rebounds. Personally I think the best statistic would be percent of offensive rebounds that the person you are responsible for gets. If Ewing had a perfect boxout everytime and someone else on his team grabbed the rebound then that is far more valuable than what percentage he actually comes up with the rebound. Same with Olajuwon. Unfortunately no such statistic exists that I know of.

Olajumon played with Barkley for like ten minutes. Please.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I was hoping you would say that. Defensive rebounds are valid not total rebounds as you show. The fact is that Ewing was by far the best defensive rebounder of the era by evidenced of his defensive rebound %. DR% is the percentage of available defensive rebounds a player grabbed while he was on the floor. During the 1990's Ewing was in the top 5 every year except the year he DNQ because he only played 26 games. Hakeem was in the top 5 one time when he was a rookie and as his offense developed his defensive rebounding numbers dropped dramatically. Robinson was never better than 9th and a few years didnt make the top 20. And keep in mind that Ewing played with Oakley for some of that period when Oakley was strictly a rebounder and surely took away opportunities from Ewing.

Defensive awards and teams are nothing but popularity contests much like the Gold Gloves in baseball.

Good argument there. I knew that and figured you would be sharp enough to bring this point out. As far as defensive rebounding % goes:

Times in the top five (led league)
Ewing-9 (1)
Olajuwon-3 (2)
Robinson-1 (0)
Mutombo-8 (2)

Also a good point about Oakley being there. That hurt his rebounding numbers but it also helped him in some ways. Oakley being there freed up Ewing to put more focus on his offense. Perhaps if he had to concentrate a little more on defense, his offensive production suffers a little. Also, Oakley often defended the opponent's top post players. Sort of like how Oberto does in SA now and allows Duncan to be a little more free and not pick up fouls.