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  #21  
Old 12-12-2007, 08:53 PM
JJP JJP is offline
Gulfstream Park
 
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I never thought I'd see a thread discussing sex and the alleged merits of 2 mile dirt races.....
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  #22  
Old 12-13-2007, 03:57 AM
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Pedigree Ann Pedigree Ann is offline
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The JC Gold Cup was shortened to 12f when the race was moved from Aqueduct to Belmont. At Aqueduct, a 9f oval, they could start at the 7f start and have a nice long run to the turn. At Belmont, running at 16f would required starting on the turn, which the track people thought the horsemen wouldn't like. (In those days, Belmont had a chute long enough for 10f races to start on the straight. It crossed the training track.)

Moving the JCGC to Belmont predated the BC and was part of the process by which Aqueduct was changed from having spring, summer, and fall meetings to having one long meet from late fall to spring. In those days, the Dwyer H was its 'Brooklyn Derby' at 10f, and the Brooklyn H took place in Brooklyn, both held in July. I would argue that many of the problems with NY racing date from the decision to turn a major racing venue, home of championship races like the JCGC and Ladies H, into a cheap winter racetrack. That and the way the OTB was originally constituted.
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  #23  
Old 12-13-2007, 07:02 AM
blackthroatedwind blackthroatedwind is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann
The JC Gold Cup was shortened to 12f when the race was moved from Aqueduct to Belmont. At Aqueduct, a 9f oval, they could start at the 7f start and have a nice long run to the turn. At Belmont, running at 16f would required starting on the turn, which the track people thought the horsemen wouldn't like. (In those days, Belmont had a chute long enough for 10f races to start on the straight. It crossed the training track.)

Moving the JCGC to Belmont predated the BC and was part of the process by which Aqueduct was changed from having spring, summer, and fall meetings to having one long meet from late fall to spring. In those days, the Dwyer H was its 'Brooklyn Derby' at 10f, and the Brooklyn H took place in Brooklyn, both held in July. I would argue that many of the problems with NY racing date from the decision to turn a major racing venue, home of championship races like the JCGC and Ladies H, into a cheap winter racetrack. That and the way the OTB was originally constituted.
That's revisionist history. The Jockey Club Gold Cup was run at 2 miles and at Belmont from 1921 to 1957, as well as 1962, 1968 and 1975. As for the Brooklyn, I don't have all the stats but it was surely run at 1 1/4 at Belmont when Forego won it two days before the Ruffian-Foolish Pleasure match race. Its lengthening the following year accomplished two things, one is that after the match race they decided to no longer use the chute and also because it seemed a good fit for the then popular Handicap Triple Crown which was now the mile of the Met Mile, the 1 1/4 of the Suburban and the 1 1/2 of the Brooklyn.

As for your comments that they turned Aqueduct into a " cheap winter racetrack ".....well that's just an inaccurate and cheap shot. The economics of winter racing seem to allude you from your Ivory Tower, and while I'm all for some of the pageantry of the sport, those days are basically gone and horse racing is a business. The survival of many players ( owners and trainers ) in NY hinges upon the winter months and because Aqueduct, and not Belmont, is a winterized racetrack that is where the racing must take place. The demise of the Ladies Handicap is not because the race takes place at Aqueduct, it is almost solely due to the BC, as the BC became a virtual conclusion to most horses' seasons and the fields for this once prestigeous race dwindled in quality and quantity.....much like many races around the land.

The Vosburgh is another great race, and for many considered the most important and definitive sprint in the land at one time, that was altered in NY. As you must know, many of its runnings took place late in the season and at Aqueduct, but always at 7F. However, the BC began to minimize it from it's very inception and finally NYRA was forced to move it permanently to Belmont so that it could be run before the BC and eventually to 6F in order for it to continue to be used as an important race, though of course now merely as a prep for the BC. In this case at least NYRA was able to salvage this race. Had they left it at Aqueduct, and 7F, it may well have floundered much like the Ladies handicap....not because of Aqueduct being a " winter racetrack " but because of the BC and timing. It should also be noted that NYRA made up for this change by creating perhaps the best new race in the country....the NYRA ( now Cigar ) Mile. It's nice to see that the BC has now savaged that great race as well. At least it took them 20 years.
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  #24  
Old 12-13-2007, 08:03 AM
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SentToStud SentToStud is offline
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Outer or inner, Aqueduct during Nov-Dec is by far the best racing east of LA and, aside from the number of G I's and grass racing, arguably better than SoCal. Jan-Mar is the dead of winter but there are still always a lot of pretty interesting small stakes races on the inner.

If the JCGC were to go to 2 miles, the likely favorite will be Al Attal. My money will be on Hidalgo, asuming Viggo can make weight.
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  #25  
Old 12-13-2007, 10:24 AM
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deltagulf deltagulf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2 Dollar Bill
Why not get Rolex to sponser the 24 hours of Churchill ? The Jockeys could keep changing after every 1 hour.

very funny
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  #26  
Old 12-13-2007, 12:39 PM
sumitas sumitas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SentToStud
Outer or inner, Aqueduct during Nov-Dec is by far the best racing east of LA and, aside from the number of G I's and grass racing, arguably better than SoCal. Jan-Mar is the dead of winter but there are still always a lot of pretty interesting small stakes races on the inner.

If the JCGC were to go to 2 miles, the likely favorite will be Al Attal. My money will be on Hidalgo, asuming Viggo can make weight.
Are you referring to the son of Tagula ?
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  #27  
Old 12-13-2007, 04:18 PM
bogeydaman bogeydaman is offline
Sunshine Park
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SentToStud
Outer or inner, Aqueduct during Nov-Dec is by far the best racing east of LA and, aside from the number of G I's and grass racing, arguably better than SoCal.
I disagree. IMO the Tropical meet at Calder (especially December) is much better racing than Aqueduct. Outside of the T-Giving weekend racing at the Big A it is unwatchable NYB. There are 16 stakes race at Tropical during the month of December and over 1/2 of them are graded. 8 months of the year I spend the majority of my handicapping $ betting New York racing at the expense of my local Florida track, but not December that is for sure. I will go so far as to take Calder in December racing over Gulfstream January any day of the week.
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  #28  
Old 12-13-2007, 04:21 PM
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SentToStud SentToStud is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bogeydaman
I disagree. IMO the Tropical meet at Calder (especially December) is much better racing than Aqueduct. Outside of the T-Giving weekend racing at the Big A it is unwatchable NYB. There are 16 stakes race at Tropical during the month of December and over 1/2 of them are graded. 8 months of the year I spend the majority of my handicapping $ betting New York racing at the expense of my local Florida track, but not December that is for sure. I will go so far as to take Calder in December racing over Gulfstream January any day of the week.
You're right as far as Stakes racing in December being better at Calder. It is better.
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  #29  
Old 12-14-2007, 07:49 PM
JJP JJP is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SentToStud
Outer or inner, Aqueduct during Nov-Dec is by far the best racing east of LA and, aside from the number of G I's and grass racing, arguably better than SoCal. Jan-Mar is the dead of winter but there are still always a lot of pretty interesting small stakes races on the inner.

If the JCGC were to go to 2 miles, the likely favorite will be Al Attal. My money will be on Hidalgo, asuming Viggo can make weight.
Whether or not its better in November than Churchill is debatable. A lot of the better NY barns have started to send horses south.

As for December, I agree with the point about Calder being better quality. Let's face it, once the NYRA meet heads to the inner dirt, the quality level is much closer to Turfway or Hawthorne than it is Belmont.

And if we bring the Fair Grounds into the picture, I think its pretty close.
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