Day that Shall Live in Infamy

[azerica]

Ok...you want to hear something that is really hard for me to believe? On another forum I go to, I opened a thread asking for a moment of thoughtful reflection for those at Pearl Harbor that day. A little girl, aged 10 she claims, replies to my thread..."Happy Pearl Harbor Day".

Do the schools not teach that it is not a holiday that we wish to be remembered as "happy"? I live in OK now, and wondered if I opened a thread to remember the Trail of Tears, would another child wish me happy trail of tears day without realizing it is a solemn topic? It is sad that children today [most of them] do not realize the history behind the holidays and events in their lives. Maybe the schools need to get back to basics.....

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

Didn't we drop two rather large, destructive bombs on Japan, or am I thinking of another Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Didn't the radiation from those bombs continue to cause illness and death decades after the war ended?

How many of those people who died, do you think, were directly, or even indirectly, involved in the attacks on a US military base in 1941? Those people we burned to death were civilians. Here's a description of what many of them looked like:

<<They had no hair because their hair was burned, and at a glance you couldn't tell whether you were looking at them from the front or in back.... If there had been only one or two such people ... perhaps I would not have had such a strong impression. But wherever I walked I met these people.... Many of them died along the road.... They didn't look like people of this world.>>

And:
<<The river became not a stream of flowing water but rather a stream of drifting dead bodies. No matter how much I might exaggerate the stories of the burned people who died shrieking and of how the city of Hiroshima was burned to the ground, the facts would still be clearly more terrible.>>

I'm not defending Japan in WW2, God knows. In fact, I even understand why Truman made the decision to drop the bombs. But to say the Japanese didn't pay what was due? Jesus Christ. How bloodthirsty can a person get?

Here's a good link to Truman's decision to drop the bomb and the aftermath:

http://www.isreview.org/issues/13/Hi...Nagasaki.shtml

Sorry Scuds- I don't mean to sound harsh, but come on, really?

No,lady,you come on.They were not innocent.They were very guilty of believing they were a master race,and their emperor was a God.That's the reason this all took place to begin with.The guys still in that USS Arizona are the real innocent dead ones(not people who supported the emperor of Japan.)If you attack an innocent country(how many did they attack...a lot) you better damn sure win.They lost,but they didn't get what was coming to them.Japanese soldiers who cut the heads off men during the Batan death march,got to live out their lives like they did nothing wrong .I've seen them interviewed.We should have told them that everybody had to leave Japan.Then,we should have made more bombs and turned their beloved island into a layer of glass.Then,we would see whether they were really sorry about Pearl Harbor.Nuclear bombs are awful,but these people who supported that emperor(all the way) deserved every bit of it.They were not innocent.Germany the same.To be honest,we have countries that push this same extreme ultra nationalism today.One of them is certainly Turkey(a potentially very dangerous country.)They use the word for "race" in their national anthem.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Question:
I was told by a high school history teacher that on Dec 6, 1941, the entire US Pacific fleet was assembled in one place for only the first and ever time.
Coincidentally, negotiations with Japanese diplomats in Washington DC had "broken down".
The carriers left port (Pearl Harbor) that day, and the following morning, we know what happened, though warnings from spotters we ignored.
So...Did FDR set it up to get the USA into WWII? Like, "here's your shot, Japan, have at it."

ps: My father was an officer that served in the South Pacific as an engineer (building landing fields). Two purple hearts, malaria, jungle rot, and nightmares for many many years after.
He was one of the greatest generation. I miss him every day. He also shared this question, and said the only thing that spared the US from defeat in the Pacific was the Panama Canal.

i bet you could also find people who think the lusitania was given up to get us into world war 1. of course the truth there is that the sinking didn't get us in to the war to end all wars. we didn't enter world war one until almost a year after the lusitania tragedy, when it was found that germany was trying to get mexico to invade the u.s. after our defeat by our neighbors to the south, they would reclaim texas, new mexico, etc.

i have a tremendously hard time believing that fdr would sacrifice so much to get us into the war, a war which many already wanted us in. also, keep in mind that we were no superpower. yes, we had some ships lost, but the fleet then in no way compares to now. actually most ships were salvaged and put back into action fairly quickly; the attack wasn't quite as devestating as initially thought. of course the loss of life was significant. and we hadn't had an attack on our own soil since the civil war. but for anyone to suggest that the commander in chief, for whatever reason, would sacrifice his own troops to get us in battle is ludicrous in the least.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

No,lady,you come on.They were not innocent.They were very guilty of believing they were a master race,and their emperor was a God.That's the reason this all took place to begin with.The guys still in that USS Arizona are the real innocent dead ones(not people who supported the emperor of Japan.)If you attack an innocent country(how many did they attack...a lot) you better damn sure win.They lost,but they didn't get what was coming to them.Japanese soldiers who cut the heads off men during the Batan death march,got to live out their lives like they did nothing wrong .I've seen them interviewed.We should have told them that everybody had to leave Japan.Then,we should have made more bombs and turned their beloved island into a layer of glass.Then,we would see whether they were really sorry about Pearl Harbor.Nuclear bombs are awful,but these people who supported that emperor(all the way) deserved every bit of it.They were not innocent.Germany the same.To be honest,we have countries that push this same extreme ultra nationalism today.One of them is certainly Turkey(a potentially very dangerous country.)They use the word for "race" in their national anthem.

And Scuds, we have people here who believe Bush was personally put in office by Jesus Christ and God loves America more than any other nation. What's your point? That citizens get inflated views of their homelands? Well, duh.

And where's your proof that every single person burned to death by those bombs supported the war? Did the babies? Did the four-year-olds? How about the five-year-olds? To say we killed absolutely no innocents is not only ridiculous, it smacks of the same irrational nationalism that you accuse other nations of. Are you saying those babies and small children deserved to burn up in an atomic blast? Is that what you're saying? Yes or no, please.

We fought back after being attacked and we fought Japan until they surrendered. Once they did, we stopped attacking and helped them rebuild. Because that's what you do in war, if you're fighting it honorably. Anything else is just revenge. Continuing to punish a nation after it surrenders is the behavior of thugs. Thank goodness the leaders of our nation during WWII didn't think like you- today Japan is an ally, due in no small part to us helping it rebuild.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

And Scuds, we have people here who believe Bush was personally put in office by Jesus Christ and God loves America more than any other nation. What's your point? That citizens get inflated views of their homelands? Well, duh.

And where's your proof that every single person burned to death by those bombs supported the war? Did the babies? Did the four-year-olds? How about the five-year-olds? To say we killed absolutely no innocents is not only ridiculous, it smacks of the same irrational nationalism that you accuse other nations of. Are you saying those babies and small children deserved to burn up in an atomic blast? Is that what you're saying? Yes or no, please.

We fought back after being attacked and we fought Japan until they surrendered. Once they did, we stopped attacking and helped them rebuild. Because that's what you do in war, if you're fighting it honorably. Anything else is just revenge. Continuing to punish a nation after it surrenders is the behavior of thugs. Thank goodness the leaders of our nation during WWII didn't think like you- today Japan is an ally, due in no small part to us helping it rebuild.

Oh,I think the problem here is you aren't aware just how ruthless these "people" acted.Lady,we got an awful lot of men in that coffin (about 1,000 innocent men.)This was not an honorably fought war(in any way.)During the BATAN Death March they hacked men to death,cut their heads off etc. Whatever they felt like doing to Americans,Brits,Aussies etc. They committed atrocities in every country they took.Raped Filipino women so much that they were mental vegetables after the war.Over a thousand men on this one ship were trapped in there when it sank.You think I should feel something for the friends,families and fellow citizens of the scum that did this to innocent people? No,I don't.They deserved those bombs.No more innocent Americans should of had to lose their lives fighting this scum.These bombs got them to surrender without any more innocent Americans dead.Yea,lady,those Japanese had to die for this war to end.I have zero sympathy for anybody living in Japan at that time......ZERO.THEY DESERVED 10 MORE BOMBS...ATLEAST!!! They will never pay the debt they owe to the countries they attacked.NEVER....THEY CAN NEVER MAKE UP FOR WHAT THEY DID.WAR isn't honorable.It is hell.Those bombs were just part of that hell,but so were the men they cut in two.What you don't get is that they deserved their ass-kickin' ,but those men in that ship didn't deserve what they got.Next time you start feeling soft for the Japanese go to that Arizona Memorial,and put your sympathy in the place it really belongs.You disgust me.

[hi_im_god]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Question:
I was told by a high school history teacher that on Dec 6, 1941, the entire US Pacific fleet was assembled in one place for only the first and ever time.
Coincidentally, negotiations with Japanese diplomats in Washington DC had "broken down".
The carriers left port (Pearl Harbor) that day, and the following morning, we know what happened, though warnings from spotters we ignored.
So...Did FDR set it up to get the USA into WWII? Like, "here's your shot, Japan, have at it."

ps: My father was an officer that served in the South Pacific as an engineer (building landing fields). Two purple hearts, malaria, jungle rot, and nightmares for many many years after.
He was one of the greatest generation. I miss him every day. He also shared this question, and said the only thing that spared the US from defeat in the Pacific was the Panama Canal.

"I was told by a high school history teacher"

i was told by someone who thought college kids too challanging

"the entire US Pacific fleet was assembled in one place for only the first and ever time."

leaving the west coast undefended.

"Coincidentally, negotiations with Japanese diplomats in Washington DC had "broken down"."

which is why we wouldn't want any ships on the west coast.

"The carriers left port (Pearl Harbor) that day"

after someone finally figured out san diego was vulnerable to the mexican coast guard.

"ps: My father was an officer that served in the South Pacific as an engineer (building landing fields). Two purple hearts, malaria, jungle rot, and nightmares for many many years after."

i'm throwing his corpse in the pot in case anyone challanges this delusion. go ahead.

i dare you.

[hi_im_god]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

Oh,I think the problem here is you aren't aware just how ruthless these "people" acted.Lady,we got an awful lot of men in that coffin (about 1,000 innocent men.)This was not an honorably fought war(in any way.)During the BATAN Death March they hacked men to death,cut their heads off etc. Whatever they felt like doing to Americans,Brits,Aussies etc. They committed atrocities in every country they took.Raped Filipino women so much that they were mental vegetables after the war.Over a thousand men on this one ship were trapped in there when it sank.You think I should feel something for the friends,families and fellow citizens of the scum that did this to innocent people? No,I don't.They deserved those bombs.No more innocent Americans should of had to lose their lives fighting this scum.These bombs got them to surrender without any more innocent Americans dead.Yea,lady,those Japanese had to die for this war to end.I have zero sympathy for anybody living in Japan at that time......ZERO.THEY DESERVED 10 MORE BOMBS...ATLEAST!!! They will never pay the debt they owe to the countries they attacked.NEVER....THEY CAN NEVER MAKE UP FOR WHAT THEY DID.WAR isn't honorable.It is hell.Those bombs were just part of that hell,but so were the men they cut in two.What you don't get is that they deserved their ass-kickin' ,but those men in that ship didn't deserve what they got.Next time you start feeling soft for the Japanese go to that Arizona Memorial,and put your sympathy in the place it really belongs.You disgust me.

once we've destroyed turkey and japan will you finally calm down?

[Storm Cadet]

I leave for Hawaii in 7 days for the Rainbow Basketball Classic...Pearl Harbor is my 1st stop to visit when I get some time off! I've always wanted to make the visit to the Arizona.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i bet you could also find people who think the lusitania was given up to get us into world war 1. of course the truth there is that the sinking didn't get us in to the war to end all wars. we didn't enter world war one until almost a year after the lusitania tragedy, when it was found that germany was trying to get mexico to invade the u.s. after our defeat by our neighbors to the south, they would reclaim texas, new mexico, etc.

i have a tremendously hard time believing that fdr would sacrifice so much to get us into the war, a war which many already wanted us in. also, keep in mind that we were no superpower. yes, we had some ships lost, but the fleet then in no way compares to now. actually most ships were salvaged and put back into action fairly quickly; the attack wasn't quite as devestating as initially thought. of course the loss of life was significant. and we hadn't had an attack on our own soil since the civil war. but for anyone to suggest that the commander in chief, for whatever reason, would sacrifice his own troops to get us in battle is ludicrous in the least.

Danzig,
In no way do I wish to discuss the US entering WWI. Let's stay with WWII.
Many have questioned the circumstances of Dec 7, 1941. Of interest to me is that the carriers and their escorts (swift ships) left port and left-over junk from WWI remained at anchor in Pearl Harbor. It is also interesting that in the Phillipines, McArthur kept his planes grounded where they were subsequently destroyed by Japanese bombers.
FDR faced opposition to US involvement in the war in Europe. As Germany and Japan were allies (Axis), the attack by Japan created public outrage, and the declaration of war provided the entry to US participation in Europe.
In my opinion, there is absolutely nothing "ludicrous" in questioning the decisions of American leaders. In fact, doing so is called "free speech".
DTS

[Danzig]

i read your reply dts, and feel no need to bang my head against this wall. have at it.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i read your reply dts, and feel no need to bang my head against this wall. have at it.

Danzig,
One of my friends here at Derby Trail provided me with this link:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/pe...315/pearl.html

I'm not asking you to "bang your head against this wall", however, in my humble view, it is much better to be informed than to remain in ignorance.
DTS

[Danzig]

http://www.slate.com/id/94663


having an opposing view in no way indicates ignorance, dts. i am very well read on ww 2, as well as the rest of american history. i have to say that when i read the line in the article above regarding oswald, i thought of you.

i also find it interesting (and this is the wall and my head part i was talking about) is that you are so set on our govt, by and for our people, being so evil and corrupt. no doubt your bias influences what articles you believe, or don't.
i tend to make up my mind on a case by case basis, without allowing any preconceived notions to influence what i think about any certain matters.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Danzig

http://www.slate.com/id/94663


having an opposing view in no way indicates ignorance, dts. i am very well read on ww 2, as well as the rest of american history. i have to say that when i read the line in the article above regarding oswald, i thought of you.

i also find it interesting (and this is the wall and my head part i was talking about) is that you are so set on our govt, by and for our people, being so evil and corrupt. no doubt your bias influences what articles you believe, or don't.
i tend to make up my mind on a case by case basis, without allowing any preconceived notions to influence what i think about any certain matters.

Danzig,
In no way did I intend to insult you as being ignorant for having an opposing view. If you took it that way, my apology.
If you believe that the government we currently have is "by the people and for the people", then we remain in total disagreement.
Our current regime is indeed corrupt and quite evil.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

once we've destroyed turkey and japan will you finally calm down?

Don't read 'em if you don't like them.All you ever do is return somebody's fast serve,but you can't serve.Your opinion is don't have a strong opinion.Fact is that all 3 countries support or supported the idea that their race is superior to all others.As far as Turkey goes,I know their ultra-nationalism is gunna be a huge problem.They've been taught to worship a leader who died 70 years ago.There is no freedom of the press.Overall,the people seem rather uneducated.Even their Moslem religion takes a backseat to their ultra-nationalism.It's only a matter of time before this bomb goes off.

[Mortimer]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Please take a moment of your day to remember our fallen hero's who gave their lives for our freedom 66 years ago today. December 7th, 1941 is one of the defining moments of world history and the men and women who fought and perished at Pearl Harbor will never be forgotten.

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/e...r/pearlhbr.htm

Fine work.


OOOOOOOOOO

[hi_im_god]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

Don't read 'em if you don't like them.All you ever do is return somebody's fast serve,but you can't serve.Your opinion is don't have a strong opinion.Fact is that all 3 countries support or supported the idea that their race is superior to all others.As far as Turkey goes,I know their ultra-nationalism is gunna be a huge problem.They've been taught to worship a leader who died 70 years ago.There is no freedom of the press.Overall,the people seem rather uneducated.Even their Moslem religion takes a backseat to their ultra-nationalism.It's only a matter of time before this bomb goes off.

"Don't read 'em if you don't like them"

who said i didn't enjoy this?

"All you ever do is return somebody's fast serve"

or slow fat curveball

"but you can't serve"

i know. it's too difficult to throw those heavy blood soaked opinions around.

"Your opinion is don't have a strong opinion"

that's called "open minded"

the rest of that post is more of your usual yadda yadda yadda only less funny.

[my miss storm cat]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

.I have zero sympathy for anybody living in Japan at that time......ZERO.THEY DESERVED 10 MORE BOMBS...ATLEAST!!

I won't bore anyone with stories of going to see the memorial (several times) or any about my Dad (who served in WWII).....

I can understand your anger but it's your militancy that i find a bit scary.

Do you have any idea of what the estimates were like, the total numbers of victims?

Can you comprehend the number 200,000? TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND children, women, men, daughters, sons, parents, loved ones? Do you understand that that number doesn't include the misery of those who died later, who suffered from radiation burns, cancer, etc? That that number is merely an estimate (which goes as high as 210,000)?


http://www.tamilnation.org/images/hu...hiroshima1.gif

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/RM1.US.HIROSHIMA2.JPG


I'm not saying you're a bad person here... just reminding you that innocent people on both sides suffered horrific and unimaginable deaths.

I'm curious as to your comment on the population of Turkey and also want to know if you address women in general as "lady" or if that was some kind of term of endearment for GR.

It seems a little demeaning to me... like some bad dialogue from a 50's film.

She's literate, educated and states her points well. I just find the term a bit crude.

Shut your mouth and go into the kitchen and make me a sammich, woman.

[my miss storm cat]

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

Shut your mouth and go into the kitchen and make me a sammich, woman.

Whew... I thought you were gonna call me a broad.

Originally Posted by my miss storm cat

Whew... I thought you were gonna call me a broad.

I was talking to Morty.