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#21
06-11-2007, 06:09 AM
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i'll say! comparing him to john henry is ridiculous! both multiple graded stakes, multi-million dollar winning geldings by obscure sires...obviously not at all alike.
no, honestly i haven't seen anyone compare the two. lava man is definitely not an elite horse in all seriousness, but he's no nag either. nags don't win that kind of money, those kinds of races. he's not overrated, i think anyone who follows the sport gives lava man his just due, and knows not to be any money. won't win outside cali, and odds are too short inside to make it worthwhile.
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Books serve to show a man that those original thoughts of his aren't very new at all. Abraham Lincoln 
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#22
06-11-2007, 06:51 AM
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I don't mean to open a can of worms, but who did John Henry beat? I remember his races and there wasn't any big dominating horses during the late 70's and the 80's. John could ship and win so in my book that puts him right up with Cigar which didn't have alot of world beaters knocking down his door during his run. Lava Man does matches well with John Henry on dirt and turf until they ship.
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#23
06-11-2007, 08:37 AM
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john henry: At 2: WON Lafayette Futurity At 3: WON Round Table H. -G3, Chocolatetown H.; 2ND Lexington H. -G2, Hill Prince H.; 3RD Volante H. -G3, Lamplighter H. -G3 At 4: WON Henry P. Russell H.; 2ND Bay Meadows H., Carleton F. Burke H. -G2, Sword Dancer S., Sunrise H. At 5: WON Hollywood Inv. H. -G1, San Juan Capistrano Inv. H. -G1, Oak Tree Inv. H. -G1, San Luis Rey S. -G1, Hialeah Turf Cup H. -G2, Brighton Beach H. -G3, San Marcos H. -G3, San Gabriel H. -G3; 2ND Jockey Club Gold Cup -G1, Sword Dancer S., Bowling Green H. -G2; 3RD Turf Classic Inv. H. -G1 At 6: WON Arlington Million Inv., Jockey Club Gold Cup S. -G1, Santa Anita H. -G1, Oak Tree Inv. S. -G1, Hollywood Inv. H. -G1, Sword Dancer S. -G3, San Luis Rey S. -G1, San Luis Obispo H. -G2 At 7: WON Santa Anita H. -G1 (500,000), Oak Tree Inv. H. -G1; 3RD Meadowlands Cup H. -G2, San Luis Rey S. -G1 At 8: WON Hollywood Inv. Turf Cup H. -G1, American H. -G2; 2ND Budweiser Million -G1, Oak Tree Inv. S. -G1 At 9: WON Budweiser Million S. -G1, Turf Classic S. -G1, Ballantine's Scotch Classic H., Hollywood Inv. H. -G1, Golden Gate H. -G3, Sunset H. -G1; 2ND Hollywood Gold Cup H. -G1; 3RD San Luis Rey S. -G1 Foaled: March 9, 1975. Horse Of The Year, 1981 & 1984. Champion Turf Horse, 1981, 1983, 1984. Champion Older Horse, 1981. Hall Of Fame inductee, 1990. my t'bred legends book is at home, i can look up some of his other foes later...
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Books serve to show a man that those original thoughts of his aren't very new at all. Abraham Lincoln
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#24
06-11-2007, 11:41 AM
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__________________
The real horses of the year (1986-2020) Manila, Java Gold, Alysheba, Sunday Silence, Go for Wand, In Excess, Paseana, Kotashaan, Holy Bull, Cigar, Alphabet Soup, Formal Gold, Skip Away, Artax, Tiznow, Point Given, Azeri, Candy Ride, Smarty Jones, Ghostzapper, Invasor, Curlin, Zenyatta, Zenyatta, Goldikova, Havre de Grace, Wise Dan, Wise Dan, California Chrome, American Pharoah, Arrogate, Gun Runner, Accelerate, Maximum Security, Gamine
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#25
06-11-2007, 11:48 AM
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It's hard for me to believe Lava Man was cooked by a rabbit that was nearly 10 lengths in front of him. They hit the 6f mark in 1:10.24 and Lava Man was just over eight lengths back at that point meaning he ran it in about 1:11 2/5 I don't believe that a 1:11 2/5 6f is going to cook Lava Man, at least not the Lava Man we've seen the past couple of years here. The move he made to go for the lead was the same move he's made in all of his other winning races. I don't think it was too soon. Just this time, he had a horse run him down. There have plenty of races in his streak that if there was anything even remotely capable, they would have run him down. But there wasn't. Yesterday was and the six pound weight difference didn't do him any favors either.
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The real horses of the year (1986-2020) Manila, Java Gold, Alysheba, Sunday Silence, Go for Wand, In Excess, Paseana, Kotashaan, Holy Bull, Cigar, Alphabet Soup, Formal Gold, Skip Away, Artax, Tiznow, Point Given, Azeri, Candy Ride, Smarty Jones, Ghostzapper, Invasor, Curlin, Zenyatta, Zenyatta, Goldikova, Havre de Grace, Wise Dan, Wise Dan, California Chrome, American Pharoah, Arrogate, Gun Runner, Accelerate, Maximum Security, Gamine
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#26
06-11-2007, 01:04 PM
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Theres noway he should have lost to that bunch. He did take a pretty hard bump at the break. Probably with no bumping at the break he wins. Also thought Nakatani left just a touch too soon trying to get the jump. Hes back on Bute and whatever else O'neill uses in Cali so hopefully big things from Lava in the near future.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ySSg4QG8g
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#27
06-11-2007, 01:17 PM
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I think age is starting to catch up with Lava Man, we'll see how he does after The HGC
but Not even considering his last race, I have always felt that something is very very very odd with Lava Man. It blows my mind that a horse who was/is this dominate in the SoCal ring not even being remotely competitve outside SoCal. Yes I do understand some horse just don't like to ship and it does affect some, but they at least will come in second or third.. But Lava Man has never been in the money, never a place or as show, or even rounded out a SuperFecta for that matter. I don't know, to never being in contention outside of Cali for such a dominante horse, I find a little odd.
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"In sports there are just two Opening Days, the Opening Day of Baseball and Opeining Day of Saratoga, all the rest are just season openers"
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#29
06-11-2007, 05:19 PM
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#31
06-11-2007, 05:33 PM
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I said nothing about the winner, but the weight means everything.
If a few extra pounds do not matter, then why even have a handicap race?? Why have weight for age? Why give the fillies a break when running against the boys? Why do apprentice riders get a weight break??
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#32
06-11-2007, 05:34 PM
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No doubt about that hoss, his extra weight wasnt the difference. I really thought he would get beat off the board, eventhough on paper he should drill that bunch. He probably did need one, but I think the bump and the premature move cost him more than the weight.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ySSg4QG8g
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#34
06-11-2007, 05:49 PM
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How was I wrong about the race? I thought he would struggle to hit the board after his Dubai flop and the trip home...
There are many factors, but weight is a very important one that handicappers continue to overlook, that is all I am trying to say. People were quick to cast him off, but few mentioned the weight. It really matters when you start carrying 8-12lbs more than all of your rivals.
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#36
06-11-2007, 05:57 PM
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Very fast race by a great horse who is got some serious breeding lines in him...
The weight matters, especially on the Turf, Polytrack, and Cushion, conventional dirt doesn't seem to have a big effect. Take a look at it in the future for reference..
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#37
06-11-2007, 05:58 PM
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If weight doesn't matter as you say, why do they handicap the more accomplished runners? Why do they give weight for age, why do they give fillies a weight break vs boys? And why do they give apprentice Jocks weight breaks to start their careers?
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#39
06-11-2007, 07:03 PM
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#40
06-11-2007, 07:32 PM
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I simply responded to your claim that a 180 pound person running a mile and a quarter wouldn't be slowed down by carrying an extra pound. Why do you think runners wear very light clothing and lighter shoes? To deny this is plain ignorance and/or denial.
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