invasor is similar to alysheba

[JJP]

Maybe, maybe not. I know Alysheba didn't run well in the Belmont but the 12 furlongs might've been what did him in. Very similar to Unbridled in that respect. But when Unbridled ran w/out Lasix in NY in the 1990 BC Classic at 10 furlongs, it didn't matter.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The problem with modern day racing is that no one really races anymore. Greatness in a horse used to be defined by many things among them winning important races over several seasons while carrying weight. Also a horse was judged by the calibur of competition that they were racing against which is a big problem for horses like Invasor who has really not faced much in the way of competition. The race yesterday was a perfect example of that. He has already proven that he a better horse than Premium Tap. What did he do yesterday except prove that again. With Discreet Cat obviously in some sort of distress, I cant really say that Invasor moved up in historical standards by winning that race regardless of the purse. It is not Invasors fault that he has no other top horses to compete against and he does win but he has yet to defeat a horse who would even be considered to be in the same breath as a hall of famer.

that's all very true, and it's a very sad state of racing affairs that that is true.
there are no real handicap races anymore, the race is more often to the shed any more, rather than on the track.
thanks for the post, i do need to try to keep this more in perspective. i'm very high on the horse-it's a shame that lack of stiff competition might mean he's another 'could be' great rather than proving he is great.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

that's all very true, and it's a very sad state of racing affairs that that is true.
there are no real handicap races anymore, the race is more often to the shed any more, rather than on the track.
thanks for the post, i do need to try to keep this more in perspective. i'm very high on the horse-it's a shame that lack of stiff competition might mean he's another 'could be' great rather than proving he is great.

He obvously is a very good horse and it is not that easy to ship and win anytime but I just don't get this feeling that I am watching a great horse when I watch him. Maybe it is the workmanlike style but I think it is that there are no really good other horses out there to compete with him. It would be interesting to see him ship west to take on Lava Man on his home turf in a race like the Pacific Classic. But there is no chance that will happen.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

He obvously is a very good horse and it is not that easy to ship and win anytime but I just don't get this feeling that I am watching a great horse when I watch him. Maybe it is the workmanlike style but I think it is that there are no really good other horses out there to compete with him. It would be interesting to see him ship west to take on Lava Man on his home turf in a race like the Pacific Classic. But there is no chance that will happen.

i'd like to see that. lava man is obviously his best only there, man that would be a great draw.

i enjoy watching him run, i think he does just enough- i mean, i really don't think premium tap has that much heart to run that far with invasor-was he just toying with that horse? knowing invasor is so close to perfect, coming back from the early sesamoid injury and being a world wide traveller...i just get a kick out of him running. so glad HIS owner was the right sheik, the one who enjoys keeping his horses on the track.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i'd like to see that. lava man is obviously his best only there, man that would be a great draw.

i enjoy watching him run, i think he does just enough- i mean, i really don't think premium tap has that much heart to run that far with invasor-was he just toying with that horse? knowing invasor is so close to perfect, coming back from the early sesamoid injury and being a world wide traveller...i just get a kick out of him running. so glad HIS owner was the right sheik, the one who enjoys keeping his horses on the track.

If he was by Storm Cat I doubt he would have been so sporting! But it is nice to have a Horse of the Year defend his title.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

If he was by Storm Cat I doubt he would have been so sporting! But it is nice to have a Horse of the Year defend his title.

yeah, i said something along those lines yesterday--and then got dressed down for dissing candy stripes....but fact remains, if the phone was ringing off the hook from breeders calling, he'd have joined bernardini last winter. thank goodness he wasn't appealing commercially! i find him plenty appealing.

but speaking of storm cat, he's pretty far down on the sires list this year-of course it's still early in the year, but certainly not par for the course for him. age finally catch up to him a bit?

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The problem with modern day racing is that no one really races anymore. Greatness in a horse used to be defined by many things among them winning important races over several seasons while carrying weight. Also a horse was judged by the calibur of competition that they were racing against which is a big problem for horses like Invasor who has really not faced much in the way of competition. The race yesterday was a perfect example of that. He has already proven that he a better horse than Premium Tap. What did he do yesterday except prove that again. With Discreet Cat obviously in some sort of distress, I cant really say that Invasor moved up in historical standards by winning that race regardless of the purse. It is not Invasors fault that he has no other top horses to compete against and he does win but he has yet to defeat a horse who would even be considered to be in the same breath as a hall of famer.

Yes, but in order to do that he had to run closer to the pace than in the Breeder's Cup Classic...so yes Invasor proved even more quality this time even if only defeating the same horse.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

He obvously is a very good horse and it is not that easy to ship and win anytime but I just don't get this feeling that I am watching a great horse when I watch him. Maybe it is the workmanlike style but I think it is that there are no really good other horses out there to compete with him. It would be interesting to see him ship west to take on Lava Man on his home turf in a race like the Pacific Classic. But there is no chance that will happen.

Chuck, are you serious? It would take Invasor shipping to California to race against Lava Man, et al, to convince you he might be a great horse?
Since when is Lava Man the standard for greatness? Yes he is at his best in Cali but Invasor would demolish Lava Man in the Pacific Classic imo.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

Chuck, are you serious? It would take Invasor shipping to California to race against Lava Man, et al, to convince you he might be a great horse?
Since when is Lava Man the standard for greatness? Yes he is at his best in Cali but Invasor would demolish Lava Man in the Pacific Classic imo.

Thank you!!!

[JJP]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Yes, but in order to do that he had to run closer to the pace than in the Breeder's Cup Classic...so yes Invasor proved even more quality this time even if only defeating the same horse.

No way was yesterday's race better than his BC Classic performance. Not even on the same page. First, he was closer to the pace because it was a crawlfest. Kandidate, the horse who everyone figured to go to the front, didn't, or couldnt. Discreet Cat was a total no-show. Last November, Invasor had to run down Bernardini, who at the time was favorite for Horse of the Year and he did it while wide over a rail friendly surface. Premium Tap had a good trip last November and still was 7 lengths behind. The also rans in the BC race would've murdered those Asian wannabe dirt runners who were fillers for yesterday's race.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

Chuck, are you serious? It would take Invasor shipping to California to race against Lava Man, et al, to convince you he might be a great horse?
Since when is Lava Man the standard for greatness? Yes he is at his best in Cali but Invasor would demolish Lava Man in the Pacific Classic imo.

Jim
I tried to find an appealing matchup but the handicap division is SO BAD, that the only really other legit horse is Lava Man in California. Maybe he would beat him out there but I dont see Invasor as an A level great horse simply because he wins a bunch of races that he should be winning. I mean he wont even have to carry any weight in the handicaps. Does Invasor vs. Corinthian get you excited? It is not really a knock on the horse but the times in which he is running.

He reminds me so much of the great high school player that has the impressive track record that has yet to be matched up against the big boys. Except there dont seem to be any big boys. You want a really scary senario for the older horse division? Think how bad it would be without him?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Yes, but in order to do that he had to run closer to the pace than in the Breeder's Cup Classic...so yes Invasor proved even more quality this time even if only defeating the same horse.

I dont understand your logic?

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I dont understand your logic?

That he had to leave his normal closing/deep stalking style to win yesterday...there are plently of horses that would have been thrown out of their game by doing so and Premium Tap has certainly showed that he has staying speed and that race could have been a beautiful set up for him had Invasor been taken back.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by JJP

No way was yesterday's race better than his BC Classic performance. Not even on the same page. First, he was closer to the pace because it was a crawlfest. Kandidate, the horse who everyone figured to go to the front, didn't, or couldnt. Discreet Cat was a total no-show. Last November, Invasor had to run down Bernardini, who at the time was favorite for Horse of the Year and he did it while wide over a rail friendly surface. Premium Tap had a good trip last November and still was 7 lengths behind. The also rans in the BC race would've murdered those Asian wannabe dirt runners who were fillers for yesterday's race.

I've seen projected figures for yesterday's race to prove otherwise.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Jim
I tried to find an appealing matchup but the handicap division is SO BAD, that the only really other legit horse is Lava Man in California. Maybe he would beat him out there but I dont see Invasor as an A level great horse simply because he wins a bunch of races that he should be winning. I mean he wont even have to carry any weight in the handicaps. Does Invasor vs. Corinthian get you excited? It is not really a knock on the horse but the times in which he is running.

He reminds me so much of the great high school player that has the impressive track record that has yet to be matched up against the big boys. Except there dont seem to be any big boys. You want a really scary senario for the older horse division? Think how bad it would be without him?

I know what you are saying, and agree basically. I think so much of Invasor I would love to see any and all match-ups that would prove his potential greatness. Like you said there are not a wealth of stars standing around for him to conquer. To be fair though the BC win over Bernardini was quite impressive. Bernardini didn't stay around long enough to really make his mark but I know he was no slouch. Going to the PC against LavaMan would be one matchup that would definitely highlight his dominance if he were to win. I really wish it would happen but I suspect it won't.

No, Invasor vs. Corinthian does not get me excited. I think maybe his mark will be one of consistancy more so than having defeated any big names as the names don't exist. For example continuing his unbroken string of G1 victories until he retires.

[smartyalex]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

Chuck, are you serious? It would take Invasor shipping to California to race against Lava Man, et al, to convince you he might be a great horse?
Since when is Lava Man the standard for greatness? Yes he is at his best in Cali but Invasor would demolish Lava Man in the Pacific Classic imo.

Very well put!!!!!

[ArlJim78]

I would say that these races highlight different aspects of Invasor.
The BC win was awesome, coming very wide around that turn, bumping with another horse, and running down Bernardini. It was a huge field although I wouldn't say that the also rans were necessarily any better than the ones that ran yesterday. Actually i feel the ones yesterday are better.

Yesterdays race was run in a different style, and ended up being a real speed fest finish. I can't wait to know the speed figures. I sense that they are going to be way up there.

[miraja2]

Right now there is nobody to really challenge Invasor. Hopefully he keeps running well into the fall and is able to defend his title in the BCC. Then by that time one of the 3yos might have emerged as a legitimate G1 10f horse. If that happens, and Invasor defeats that animal, he will move to another level and perhaps will enter the discussion as one of the greats.
The fact that he continues to pile up wins in big races is no doubt impressive, but right now his signature victories have come over Premium Tap and the incredibly over-hyped Bernardini. He doesn't HAVE to defeat another great horse to be considered great in my opinion, but if he doesn't, than he needs to continue to demonstrate his dominace for the rest of the year to enter the discussion of all-time greats. He sure is impressive though.

[JJP]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

I've seen projected figures for yesterday's race to prove otherwise.

I'm assuming they weren't pace figures. If you ever see Premium Tap on the lead, you know there's no speed in the race. And a speed figure doesn't tell the whole story; its HOW you earned that figure thats important. That said, I would discredit any figure that said yesterday's race was superior to the BC Classic.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by JJP

I'm assuming they weren't pace figures. If you ever see Premium Tap on the lead, you know there's no speed in the race. And a speed figure doesn't tell the whole story; its HOW you earned that figure thats important. That said, I would discredit any figure that said yesterday's race was superior to the BC Classic.

Suit yourself, I thought it was a heck of a race.