House Subcommittee Hearings

[Rileyoriley]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Rupert

You have to understand that this "hearing" was like a fixed race. The politicians had already predetermined what they want to do, which is CONTROL racings revenue streams, hence the one sided witness list. Can you inagine if the outcry when they held the baseball hearings if they didnt invite the players association reps? Hell no player would have shown up. Arthur Hancock has been saying that the sky is falling since 1990 yet it hasnt. Jack Van Berg was only invited because of a piece in the NY Post where he sounded like a bitter old guy. Jackson employes one of the most penalized trainers in the business yet was never asked about that relationship. Randy Moss has had an on air agenda since the begining of the year.It was a set up. Some of what they said may be true (in theory, since i heard mostly personal opinions that were never backed up with any facts or examples).

But the whole process was a sham. Why wasnt the RMTC represented? Why wasn't the HBPA repesented? Why werent the racetracks represented? Can you agree that this was far from a representative group? just because you agree that the is a problem with drugs doesnt mean you have to think that this was a positive.

Do you not understand that whenever racing has an issue this testimony will be referenced by both the politicians and mainstream media? Do you not understand that when politicians talk of people getting wealthy and huge amounts of revenue and billion dollar industry these are signs that they intend on taking some of that money even though there really isnt any money out there to take? Do you realize that the sport moving forward will look exactly the same on the track as it does now?

Think I'm wrong about that? Let me give you a brief reminder of what has happened in the last 10 years. When I got my trainers license in 1999 there was wide spread milkshaking, wide spread EPO use, zero steroid regulation, wide spread use of shockwave machines right up to the time horses went to the paddock, in KY we were allowed to give anti inflamatories 4 hours before post, no detention barns in NY, no surveliience barns in CA, virtually no investigators anywhere, cocaine positives, steroids in sales horses, etc. As of Jan 1, 2009 we will have dealt with all of these issues yet people like you continue to say that everything is out of control and nothing has been done. So when some of us scratch our heads when you guys complain that nothing as been done maybe you can understand where we are coming from.

Has enough been done? of course not but in my lifetime more has been done in the past 4 years than the first 36. What exactly are the feds going to do? Ban steroids? that has already been accomplished for the most part. I never heard one of the illustrious panelists talk about the so called designer drugs that the guys in CA that you despise so much are using. They arent gaining an advantage using drugs that everybody has access to.

If you love the sport in any capacity I fail to see how this will wind up a positive in the end. Higher takeout, less money for owners, and the same guys winning all the races. The breeding aspect cant be legislated and as such will not change unless guys start buying slow horses and ignoring the fast ones. Horses will still breakdown, unfortunately in big races too. Not much will change but it will cost us a lot. This is a hugely complex issue which is not exactly a government specialty.

No AAEP representation either.

[FGFan]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I completely disagree with your characterization of the hearings as a ploy for the HSUS. I think that the majority of people in the business think that major changes need to be made. I think the main point of contention amongst people in the business is the question of whether federal government intervention is needed or not.

How can you see it any other way? PETA went beserk after the Kentucky Derby, then suddenly a Rep. from Kentucky whose wife dually sits on the KHRA and HSUS introduces a hearing in his own committee. Seems pretty clear to me and others that have dealt with animal legislation before.

Believe me I'm not in anyway saying there does not need to be change, but your point of contention amongst the people in the business is what needs to be addressed.


Ideally what needs to happen is the state racing commissions, the tracks, the horsemen, the vets need to come together come up with a plan that works for all tracks. Make your own intersate commission. Then the correct people that work on a day to day basis with these animals are the ones to bring it to each state and have legislation passed in each state that is basically the same around the country and that will govern racing. That way you don't and can't have the likes of PETA and HSUS interfering.
It is so much easier to have legislation like that passed, the horsemen and commissions come up with a plan make the reccomendations bring to a bill and it goes thru without a hitch and you don't have anti-AR people like myself upset that the AR's influenced the bill.

The problem is when you leave it to the legislators on their own you have the AR people in their ears 24/7. No matter what the horseracing people say or think...... PETA and HSUS think you are all animal abusers and should be stopped, it is but one of their sole missions in life.

Oh and you really need to hire a good lobbying firm ASAP.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by FGFan

How can you see it any other way? PETA went beserk after the Kentucky Derby, then suddenly a Rep. from Kentucky whose wife dually sits on the KHRA and HSUS introduces a hearing in his own committee. Seems pretty clear to me and others that have dealt with animal legislation before.

Believe me I'm not in anyway saying there does not need to be change, but your point of contention amongst the people in the business is what needs to be addressed.


Ideally what needs to happen is the state racing commissions, the tracks, the horsemen, the vets need to come together come up with a plan that works for all tracks. Make your own intersate commission. Then the correct people that work on a day to day basis with these animals are the ones to bring it to each state and have legislation passed in each state that is basically the same around the country and that will govern racing. That way you don't and can't have the likes of PETA and HSUS interfering.
It is so much easier to have legislation like that passed, the horsemen and commissions come up with a plan make the reccomendations bring to a bill and it goes thru without a hitch and you don't have anti-AR people like myself upset that the AR's influenced the bill.

The problem is when you leave it to the legislators on their own you have the AR people in their ears 24/7. No matter what the horseracing people say or think...... PETA and HSUS think you are all animal abusers and should be stopped, it is but one of their sole missions in life.

Oh and you really need to hire a good lobbying firm ASAP.

The horseracing industry has 1000x more influence on congress than PETA. All the gambling industries have strong lobbies in Washington.
You guys are talking as if the people on the panels were from PETA and HSUS. Practically every person on the panel was from horseracing.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

The horseracing industry has 1000x more influence on congress than PETA. All the gambling industries have strong lobbies in Washington.
You guys are talking as if the people on the panels were from PETA and HSUS. Practically every person on the panel was from horseracing.

HSUS has 1000x more influence on congress than gambling or horse racing. They own - today - far more congressmen than racing or gambling ever will.

The Chairman leading the hearing is the husband of a vice president of HSUS.

They cut off or ignored everybody whose viewpoint they didn't want to hear and whose viewpoint didn't directly support federal control (don't read about what was said, go listen to it yourself)

Do not underestimate these people. PETA is nothing, but HSUS is something. HSUS dresses up well and goes to Washington daily.

HSUS wants to control horseracing with the point of banning it in the future. They know exactly what they are doing and how to garner public support, and how to lobby. And they have plenty of money to fund whatever they want.

THE HSUS CALLED THIS HEARING - it wouldn't have occured except for the Humane Society of the United States VP Connie Whitfield telling her husband to call it

The HSUS contributed campaign funds to Whitfields' husband, the Congressman who called this hearing.

To underestimate these people (the HSUS), or believe they will "help racing", is unbelievably naive. Look at their history in the animal rights arena.

[FGFan]

Originally Posted by Riot

HSUS has 1000x more influence on congress than gambling or horse racing. They own - today - far more congressmen than racing or gambling ever will.

The Chairman leading the hearing is the husband of a vice president of HSUS.

They cut off or ignored everybody whose viewpoint they didn't want to hear and whose viewpoint didn't directly support federal control (don't read about what was said, go listen to it yourself)

Do not underestimate these people. PETA is nothing, but HSUS is something. HSUS dresses up well and goes to Washington daily.

HSUS wants to control horseracing with the point of banning it in the future. They know exactly what they are doing and how to garner public support, and how to lobby. And they have plenty of money to fund whatever they want.

THE HSUS CALLED THIS HEARING - it wouldn't have occured except for the Humane Society of the United States VP Connie Whitfield telling her husband to call it

The HSUS contributed campaign funds to Whitfields' husband, the Congressman who called this hearing.

To underestimate these people (the HSUS), or believe they will "help racing", is unbelievably naive. Look at their history in the animal rights arena.

Hah, you got to it before me....


I think I suggested a pretty good alternative to the Fed, now how to enact that with fragmented groups is another thing.

Seems some are determined that the Fed is the way to go. Falls on deaf ears how influential these AR groups are.

Oh well, they say hindsight is 20/20, once the bad legislation is passed they can't say we didn't warn them.

[Riot]

"Since its inception, HSUS has tried to limit the choices of American consumers, opposing dog breeding, conventional livestock and poultry farming, rodeos, circuses, horse racing, marine aquariums, and fur trapping."

http://www.activistcash.com/organization_overview.cfm

Just click under "activist groups" and click on Humane Society of the United States

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Riot

HSUS has 1000x more influence on congress than gambling or horse racing. They own - today - far more congressmen than racing or gambling ever will.

The Chairman leading the hearing is the husband of a vice president of HSUS.

They cut off or ignored everybody whose viewpoint they didn't want to hear and whose viewpoint didn't directly support federal control (don't read about what was said, go listen to it yourself)

Do not underestimate these people. PETA is nothing, but HSUS is something. HSUS dresses up well and goes to Washington daily.

HSUS wants to control horseracing with the point of banning it in the future. They know exactly what they are doing and how to garner public support, and how to lobby. And they have plenty of money to fund whatever they want.

THE HSUS CALLED THIS HEARING - it wouldn't have occured except for the Humane Society of the United States VP Connie Whitfield telling her husband to call it

The HSUS contributed campaign funds to Whitfields' husband, the Congressman who called this hearing.

To underestimate these people (the HSUS), or believe they will "help racing", is unbelievably naive. Look at their history in the animal rights arena.

The President of the Jockey Club testified. He said he didn't want federal control. So that was a witness who did not support federal control. If Whitfield's husband wanted to ban horseracing, do you honestly think that he would have any chance of doing it? There is no way. The horseracing industry has an incredibly strong lobby in congress. They have 100x more power than the HSUS or PETA.

By the way, Dutrow was invited to testify. Is he in the pockets of PETA?

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Riot

"Since its inception, HSUS has tried to limit the choices of American consumers, opposing dog breeding, conventional livestock and poultry farming, rodeos, circuses, horse racing, marine aquariums, and fur trapping."

http://www.activistcash.com/organization_overview.cfm

Just click under "activist groups" and click on Humane Society of the United States

Since they are so powerful why do we still have rodeos, circuses, horse racing, poultry farming, etc. ?

Animals can't protect themselves. They need a voice. I am thankful that there are animal right's groups out there. I wish the animal right's groups had more power. Unfortunately they don't.

By the way, who funds that website that you provided the link to? That website is hilarious. They bash all animal right's groups. I didn't realize that all animal right's groups are bad. How in the world could you think that any information from that site is credible?

[Riot]

If Whitfield's husband wanted to ban horseracing, do you honestly think that he would have any chance of doing it?

Absolutely. They just started - they held this hearing.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Riot

Absolutely. They just started - they held this hearing.

I guess that is the end of horseracing. Do you think this year's Derby was the last Kentucky Derby we will ever see or do you think that we might have one more next year and that will be it? I'm obviously being sarcastic.

Any changes that will be made, will only be made with the support of some powerful people in racing. Even an issue like the whip. If they end up changing the whip or banning the whip, it will only be because there are plenty of people in racing that think the whip is not necessary. People like Jerry Bailey and Nick Zito don't think the whip is needed. I asked one of my trainers. He said he would have no problem with the elimination of the whip.

I made two posts in a row, so you may have missed my last post. In that post, I asked who was behind that website that you provided the link to.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I made two posts in a row, so you may have missed my last post. In that post, I asked who was behind that website that you provided the link to.

Just go to the website, click on "About Us", and it tells you.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Riot

Just go to the website, click on "About Us", and it tells you.

It doesn't tell you anything. They don't tell you who they are or who is funding them. They simply call themselves "Center For Consumer Freedom". A more accurate name would be "multi-billion dollar corporations who want to discredit any group that might cost us money".

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

It doesn't tell you anything. They don't tell you who they are or who is funding them. They simply call themselves "Center For Consumer Freedom". A more accurate name would be "multi-billion dollar corporations who want to discredit any group that might cost us money".

If you click on Center for Consumer Freedom, you will see that CCF is a non-profit, and you can then see where CCF gets their money from.

What does that have to do with what activistcash says about HSUS? All the information they list about HSUS is indeed true, and independently verifiable.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Riot

If you click on Center for Consumer Freedom, you will see that CCF is a non-profit, and you can then see where CCF gets their money from.

What does that have to do with what activistcash says about HSUS? All the information they list about HSUS is indeed true, and independently verifiable.

The fact that they are non-profit doesn't mean anything. Practically every animal right's group is non-profit. Does that mean that they don't have an agenda?

Saying that what activistcash says about HSUS is all true would be like saying that everything that PETA says about an issue is true.

Whether you are talking about an animal right's group or an anti-animal right's group, you have to realize that most of what they are telling you is one-sided and half-truths.

That site is laughable. They refer to all these charities as "anti-consumer". That's a joke. Activistcash and Center For Consumer Freedom were created by multi-billion dollar corporations to try to discredit all the good work of any charity(mainly animal right's charities) that may affect their business adversely. They are ruthless. They will smear anyone that might hurt their bottom line.

If you honestly think that site is an unbiased, reliable source for information I have some swamp land I'd like to sell you.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Do you want to know who the Center For Consumer Freedom is?

Here you go:

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php...nsumer_Freedom

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

If you honestly think that site is an unbiased, reliable source for information I have some swamp land I'd like to sell you.

The point is that everything the site lists about the Humane Society of the United States is true, and independently verifiable from the public record and other sources. Hell, I've watched half of it occur in real time over the years.

It's no secret what HSUS is. That site is certainly not the only information available about that organization on the internet, in the press or in the public record.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Riot

The point is that everything the site lists about the Humane Society of the United States is true, and independently verifiable from the public record and other sources. Hell, I've watched half of it occur in real time over the years.

It's no secret what HSUS is. That site is certainly not the only information available about that organization on the internet, in the press or in the public record.

As I said, if you want to know who the Center For Consumer Freedom is, here you go:

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php...nsumer_Freedom

You can't believe a word they say. I'm not saying that every word they say is untrue, but it is mainly a bunch of half-truths.

I recall some of the testimony from the researcher from the University Of Colorado. He is collaborating with a researcher from the U. of Maine to determine the best conditions for any type of track surface, how to maintain that condition and how to evaluate surfaces.

I believe he also stated that there is blood testing that is 90% accurate in indicating a horse has a minor injury that may progress to a fracture. His research indicates that catostrophic injuries are often the result of a progression of a minor injury evolving into a catostrophic injury over time. The implication is this : the data seems to indicate that if a horse blood test shows the beginning of what might become a fracture, the horse needs rest, not medication to mask the injury. Once the horse's blood test shows he is sound he can resume training.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by kagbr

I recall some of the testimony from the researcher from the University Of Colorado. He is collaborating with a researcher from the U. of Maine to determine the best conditions for any type of track surface, how to maintain that condition and how to evaluate surfaces.

I believe he also stated that there is blood testing that is 90% accurate in indicating a horse has a minor injury that may progress to a fracture. His research indicates that catostrophic injuries are often the result of a progression of a minor injury evolving into a catostrophic injury over time. The implication is this : the data seems to indicate that if a horse blood test shows the beginning of what might become a fracture, the horse needs rest, not medication to mask the injury. Once the horse's blood test shows he is sound he can resume training.

He is more than just a researcher. Dr. McIllwraith is a world renowned surgeon. Many consider him to be the best surgeon in the country. He even flies to Europe to do surgeries on horses over there. He does almost all of our surgeries. He has done arthroscopic surgery on at least 3-4 of our horses.