12/26-27 (SA): Malibu, La Brea, Oaks (G1's); Frankel (G3), Logan

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

There's an old story about two guys being chased by a bear. One guys says to the other "you're not faster than a bear." The other guy responds, "I don't have to be faster than a bear, I just need to be faster than you."

If you want to argue that Charlatan is not as good a distance horse as some of the top ones of the past, that's a fair argument. If you want to argue that in the Arkansas Derby, he didn't prove that he was a superior distance horse, we could have that debate. But then are you going to tell me that Authentic proved he was a superior distance horse in the Haskell? We know what he did later. So Charlatan wouldn't have had to prove he was superior to Secretariat. Just superior to Authentic, Tiz the Law, and Swiss Skydiver. Nothing I've seen from him tells me he couldn't beat them.

I have a two part question. Who you got between Charlatan and Gamine?

Also did Charlatan do enough today to make you reconsider Gamine for HOY?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

I have a two part question. Who you got between Charlatan and Gamine?

Also did Charlatan do enough today to make you reconsider Gamine for HOY?

8f or under, i'm taking Gamine. Over that, Charlatan.

No, he didn't. But I would chose him as top 3yo male.

My question for you. Who do you think is the better horse? Charlatan or Authentic? Not which one had the better year but is the better horse.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

8f or under, i'm taking Gamine. Over that, Charlatan.

No, he didn't. But I would chose him as top 3yo male.

My question for you. Who do you think is the better horse? Charlatan or Authentic? Not which one had the better year but is the better horse.

Probably Charlatan, but if you asked me after the Classic I might have answered different.

Thank god you don’t have any eclipse votes

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Probably Charlatan, but if you asked me after the Classic I might have answered different.

Thank god you don’t have any eclipse votes

After the Classic, I would have said Authentic was the clear winner. I would change it now. Even then, I thought Charlatan was the better horse but one graded stakes win just wasn't enough to overcome the resume advantage Authentic had. Honestly, it still isn't but it for me Charlatan > Authentic on talent is more than Authentic > Charlatan on resume.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

After the Classic, I would have said Authentic was the clear winner. I would change it now. Even then, I thought Charlatan was the better horse but one graded stakes win just wasn't enough to overcome the resume advantage Authentic had. Honestly, it still isn't but it for me Charlatan > Authentic on talent is more than Authentic > Charlatan on resume.

I think you’re overestimating today’s effort a bit. That was not the Nashville we saw last month and my guess is he’s finally turned into a pumpkin. The others aren’t very good.

For the record Charlatan still has one graded win. He was DQd in Arkansas. Hay and oats Bob.

[blackthroatedwind]

Interesting how quickly people forget Nadal ran the faster race in Arkansas.

All the "Charlatan is a router" nonsense clogging the internet will eventually get flushed away and forgotten. Maybe in a soft spot, if he can control the pace, but I'm highly skeptical.

How bout just hoping he stays sound so he can run in the Carter, Met Mile, and Forego.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Interesting how quickly people forget Nadal ran the faster race in Arkansas.

All the "Charlatan is a router" nonsense clogging the internet will eventually get flushed away and forgotten. Maybe in a soft spot, if he can control the pace, but I'm highly skeptical.

How bout just hoping he stays sound so he can run in the Carter, Met Mile, and Forego.

Nobody has forgotten that. But to say he ran the faster race is subjective.....as the BC Sprint vs the Perryville taught us.

What you're not doing is taking into account the expected competition. If you're saying he can't beat top competition at a distance, that's one thing. But Kiss Today Goodbye and Idol just ran 1-2 in the San Antonio and I don't know what great horses you're expecting for the Big Cap but I don't see anything that I'd say outclasses Charlatan.

Your problem is that you can only seem to understand this concept when it comes to horses that you believe in but when others believe the same concept about other horses, it's nonsense to you. Like with Gamine. These were your words:

"She is better going shorter, but still better than almost every horse of her sex going long....and most males too."

So for me to say a horse that's won a grades stakes race at 9f can run long is silly and nonsense but for you to say that a horse that's only won stakes at 8f and under and was easily beaten in her 9f race and much less than dominant in her 8.5f race is........you know what, nevermind. The point is proven.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

After the Classic, I would have said Authentic was the clear winner. I would change it now. Even then, I thought Charlatan was the better horse but one graded stakes win just wasn't enough to overcome the resume advantage Authentic had. Honestly, it still isn't but it for me Charlatan > Authentic on talent is more than Authentic > Charlatan on resume.

Not sure what your criteria is for "talent" other than an unbeaten record. You keep saying Charlatan has won at 9f but he hasn't; he was disqualified in AK for testing positive for a local anesthetic.

Despite having a local anesthetic in his system at the time of the weaker division of the Arkansas Derby, the horse regressed 10 BSF points on the stretch-out under absolutely perfect conditions.

Meanwhile, Authentic, who presumably is less talented because he lost a couple of races, increased his speed figures every time he stepped up in trip and company. And he stayed sound while doing it. 87-90-98-100-105-111; no mean feat.

The only chink in Authentic's armor was that he failed to prove he could survive a speed duel although he hardly packed it in in either of his losses.

Charlatan hasn't survived a speed duel as of yet and nothing he did yesterday suggest he will be able to do so over a route of ground. The only thing he proved was that he will willingly sit off a run-off type (the way Gamine did behind Serengeti Empress) in a sprint. He was still well clear of the rest of the field early.

Considering that with his sharp speed figure drop off in his only route attempt (despite being left with a clear unpressured lead throughout) and it is clear you are way overboard on all of this.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Not sure what your criteria is for "talent" other than an unbeaten record. You keep saying Charlatan has won at 9f but he hasn't; he was disqualified in AK for testing positive for a local anesthetic.

Despite having a local anesthetic in his system at the time of the weaker division of the Arkansas Derby, the horse regressed 10 BSF points on the stretch-out under absolutely perfect conditions.

Meanwhile, Authentic, who presumably is less talented because he lost a couple of races, increased his speed figures every time he stepped up in trip and company. And he stayed sound while doing it. 87-90-98-100-105-111; no mean feat.

The only chink in Authentic's armor was that he failed to prove he could survive a speed duel although he hardly packed it in in either of his losses.

Charlatan hasn't survived a speed duel as of yet and nothing he did yesterday suggest he will be able to do so over a route of ground. The only thing he proved was that he will willingly sit off a run-off type (the way Gamine did behind Serengeti Empress) in a sprint. He was still well clear of the rest of the field early.

Considering that with his sharp speed figure drop off in his only route attempt (despite being left with a clear unpressured lead throughout) and it is clear you are way overboard on all of this.

Other than having him disqualified from the Alaska Derby, you pretty much nailed it.

Still, it's kind of an embarrassing error.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Still, it's kind of an embarrassing error.

G**damn public education system.

I'm not too embarrassed, though.

Pretty sure that if we conducted an internet poll of the American populace on whether or not 'AK' is the correct abbreviation for Arkansas I'd have a good chance of coming out on top.

Kind of like that fable in Serpico. If the king drinks the poisoned water he will regain his sanity.