BC Stunner: 2 days, 3 new races..

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

Biggest mistake the BC committee ever made (until this week) was cutting the BC Distaff back from 10f to 9f in 1988. Made it a race for milers, not classic horses.

Second biggest mistake is having a 6f sprint. Six furlongs is the cheap speed distance, not worthy of a $1 million purse. I would hold out for the longest one-turn distance from 7f to 8f that the host track could manage. Obviates the need for a new mile race.

Third biggest mistake is making the Juvie races two turns. This has led to the 'back-dating' of 2-turn prep races for 2yos into LATE AUGUST, which is a guaranteed formula to shorten careers by stressing immature knees and ankles on twice as many turns. Affirmed never raced around 2 turns at 2 in 9 starts; races like the Remsen, Ky JC, Breeders Futurity, were one-turn miles(or not quite a mile) and did just fine pointing out top prospects.

The way they are lengthening juvenile races and shortening races for older horses, pretty soon races for all ages will be one distance (maybe 1 1/16), like the trotters.

Definitely agree with number one.

And I have been trying to emphasize number three for years. It makes me mad every time I think about it. If I had a top two year old, he/she would NEVER run in the BC Juvy races.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

I was more opposed to the addition of the Filly & Mare Turf than seemingly anyone else---so it shouldn't be a surprised that I think the addition of all these races, is a terrible day for the sport.

We have watered down Grade 1 races all year long, we have mediocre stake races with small fields and/or inflated purses all year long.

The Breeders Cup day was always the one day where you would see all the best, and they would face off against all the best.

The addition of a Breeders Cup Dirt mile has to be the absolute most annoying of the additons. Not only are you going to steal some quality horses away from both the Sprint and the Classic---but the addition of a dirt mile race is going to really screw up the complexion and pace scenerio of both races.

I have a bad feeling Discreet Cat will be pointed to that stupid new race instead of the Breeders Cup Classic.

If they had this silly race earlier, would Ghostzapper have ever been stretched out beyond 8.5 furlongs? He won the Grade 1, 6.5 furlong Vosburgh Stakes in tremendously impressive last-to-first fashion in his last start of his 3year-old season. Tom Durkin proclaiming him a "SPRINTING FORCE!" after the wire. Frankel passed on the Sprint, not wanting to cut him back to 6f's. GZ would likely have run if there was a BC Mile race that year. He wins that, and he may never get a distance test.

Ghostzapper routed just three times in his life---twice around two-turns, resulting in Beyer figs of 128 (fastest ever published in the DRF) and 124 (BC Classic win) --- his other route win came around one-turn, in a thrilling 1:46 and change victory over '05 HOY Saint Liam...winning despite being floated way out by SL.

I can go on and on about how I hate the other additions--but I'll spare you people that much. This Mile race is really the one that annoys me most.

Black Tie Affair won the BC Classic and was 3rd in a BC Sprint. Pleasant Tap was 2nd in both races. Precisionist won the Sprint and was 3rd in the Classic.

Instead of trying to create a race to lure horses like Ghostzapper, Black Tie Affair, Pleasant Tap, and Precisionist---let those types choose between the Sprint and the Classic. Not only do they add to the strength of the race, but their presence alone adds greatly to the race from tactical and pace standpoints.

To sum it all up--not only will the BC Mile Dirt race hurt the quality of both the Sprint and the Classic....but I also believe they will take away greatly from the excitement of both races. The likelyhood of slower paced BC Classic races is now far greater. The likelyhood of seeing the sensational visuals that came from Dancing Spree and Gulch's dramatic closing victories in the BC Sprint is also now much less likely. Both of those horses would have certainly passed the Sprint for a Dirt Mile. As might have a few other past winners of that race.

[Kasept]

Post of the Year... Thx DrugS.

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by merasmag

kasept and he knows it

I must still be asleep...did you just accuse Steve of plagarism?

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by merasmag

not that i wasn't...but c'mon...u and your people jump all over me when you don't like what i say...i get no credit when u use my ****???

Excuse me Sharon.. Just amazing. You've got some gall. Jim Gluckson of the NTRA refered to the two day event as a "festival" when I interviewed him on "At the Races and Beyond" on the afternoon of the 8th at around 6pm. The comment in my column about trying to effect a "festival" of racing with the BC is in reference to his comments on our nationally-broadcast show... not your typical witching hour blather that I hadn't even seen until today (when it was brought to my attention).

Here's the link to the interview: http://www.attheracesandbeyond.com/stream/1807c.mp3
Gluckson reference to "festival" at 9:50 mark of segment and by me again at the 12:00 mark...

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I was more opposed to the addition of the Filly & Mare Turf than seemingly anyone else---so it shouldn't be a surprised that I think the addition of all these races, is a terrible day for the sport.

We have watered down Grade 1 races all year long, we have mediocre stake races with small fields and/or inflated purses all year long.

The Breeders Cup day was always the one day where you would see all the best, and they would face off against all the best.

The addition of a Breeders Cup Dirt mile has to be the absolute most annoying of the additons. Not only are you going to steal some quality horses away from both the Sprint and the Classic---but the addition of a dirt mile race is going to really screw up the complexion and pace scenerio of both races.

I have a bad feeling Discreet Cat will be pointed to that stupid new race instead of the Breeders Cup Classic.

If they had this silly race earlier, would Ghostzapper have ever been stretched out beyond 8.5 furlongs? He won the Grade 1, 6.5 furlong Vosburgh Stakes in tremendously impressive last-to-first fashion in his last start of his 3year-old season. Tom Durkin proclaiming him a "SPRINTING FORCE!" after the wire. Frankel passed on the Sprint, not wanting to cut him back to 6f's. GZ would likely have run if there was a BC Mile race that year. He wins that, and he may never get a distance test.

Ghostzapper routed just three times in his life---twice around two-turns, resulting in Beyer figs of 128 (fastest ever published in the DRF) and 124 (BC Classic win) --- his other route win came around one-turn, in a thrilling 1:46 and change victory over '05 HOY Saint Liam...winning despite being floated way out by SL.

I can go on and on about how I hate the other additions--but I'll spare you people that much. This Mile race is really the one that annoys me most.

Black Tie Affair won the BC Classic and was 3rd in a BC Sprint. Pleasant Tap was 2nd in both races. Precisionist won the Sprint and was 3rd in the Classic.

Instead of trying to create a race to lure horses like Ghostzapper, Black Tie Affair, Pleasant Tap, and Precisionist---let those types choose between the Sprint and the Classic. Not only do they add to the strength of the race, but their presence alone adds greatly to the race from tactical and pace standpoints.

To sum it all up--not only will the BC Mile Dirt race hurt the quality of both the Sprint and the Classic....but I also believe they will take away greatly from the excitement of both races. The likelyhood of slower paced BC Classic races is now far greater. The likelyhood of seeing the sensational visuals that came from Dancing Spree and Gulch's dramatic closing victories in the BC Sprint is also now much less likely. Both of those horses would have certainly passed the Sprint for a Dirt Mile. As might have a few other past winners of that race.

So well said. It's dilution, plain and simple. Less chance to see the best against the best.

Maybe we can look forward to a 9-furlong BC race in a couple of years, for the "distance horse" that cannot quite hack 10 furlongs but isn't quite quick enough for 8. And we'll have to have one for the fillies and mares, too. Wouldn't a 3-day "festival" be better than two, anyway?

--Dunbar

[SniperSB23]

Do people really think they would have run Ghostzapper in a $1 million BC Dirt Mile instead of the $6 million BC Classic? I sure as hell don't. I think the only horses that will run in the BC Dirt Mile instead of the Classic are the horses with absolutely no chance in the Classic and the horses that would skip the Breeders' Cup altogether because of being stuck between the Sprint and the Classic. The effect on the pace scenario in the Classic is a valid point and, in my opinion, the only effect the addtition of the BC Dirt Mile will have on the outcome of the BC Classic. However, if a horse can't win the BC Classic in a 10-12 horse field because there isn't enough pace then the horse just plain isn't good enough and shouldn't be winning the BC Classic anyways.

[Linny]

As for the BC Dirt Mile, I agree with DrugS but the one that really has me is the Juvie Turf. Is it simply a nod to our Euro friends who of late have not been as dominant in the Mile? The fact is that it's now a "division" with a championship, but no races. I like that KY has carded several 2yo grass stakes at KEE and CD in the fall. I have spoken to a few trainers who actually feel that relatively early stretchouts are less had on young horses on grass than dirt and that (overall) routes are less taxing than sprints so I understand the idea, but IMO the time is not here for such a race as the BC Juvie Turf. Most of the races (in KY) in this "division" are run in Oct and Nov, by which time horses have come through maidens and are ready to stretch out.
For years I have ranted about NYRA not having any grass stakes for babies save for the (now nearly defunct Pilgrim and Miss Grillo very late in the fall). They run about 20 2yo MSW on grass at Belmont/Saratoga annually and the winners then have no place to go. They ship to Canada for the Summer S (G3) but that's it. Now that there is a "championship race" the tracks will begin to scramble to backfill a division. The tail is again wagging the dog.

The dirt mile hurts 2 races and if by chance it has no effect on the Sprint or the Classic then exactly WHO is in it??? Horses that really were not good enough for either!!! In either case something has to give. When you take out the Sun King's and the Congaree's and the Pleasant Tap's you diminish the Classic. Horses like Silver Train and orientate were 'drop back" sprinters who won the Sprint. Both of them might have gone to the Dirt Mile had the option been open. Lion Tamer, Aldebaran and Left bank all would probably have passed the Sprint for a Dirt Mile.
There are only so many true G1 horses and calling a race G1 doesn't always make it so. If a horse is BC caliber he should be looking at the Classic or the Sprint. Save for the Met Mile and the Cigar Mile, as much as everyone loves "the milers" we once again are looking at a race without a division.

[timmgirvan]

QUICK!! Somebody give me a definition of "actual work"!

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by merasmag

meetings, phone calls, making $$$---what do u do tmg???

I do some of that too,Mera, but usually don't crap on my host's floor!

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Do people really think they would have run Ghostzapper in a $1 million BC Dirt Mile instead of the $6 million BC Classic? I sure as hell don't.

Absolutely he would have. He had won the 6.5 furlong Vosburgh by 6 1/2 lengths, in last-to-first fashion, in the supersonic final time of 1:14 3/5ths. In the words of Tom Durkin after the wire that day: "Just 1/5th off the track record in the 66th Vosburgh Stakes.....Ghostzapper...a sprinting force!" Instead of passing the BC Sprint...Frankel would have run him in the BC Dirt Mile after the Vosburgh. Which, he would have won.
Ghostzapper was a half sibling to confirmed sprinter City Zip...and Frankel waited until August of his 4-year-old season to stretch him out. Here are some quotes.

Before his 4yo debut in the 7 furlong Tom Fool "Trainer Bobby Frankel opted to skip the Breeders' Cup Sprint because he believed Ghostzapper's closing style would work against him at Santa Anita."

After his 4yo debut win in the Tom Fool "Frankel, who won the Tom Fool last year with Aldebaran, said Ghostzapper would be pointed to the $200,000 Alfred G. Vanderbilt at Saratoga on Aug. 14 as a prep for the Grade 1 Forego on Sept. 4, also at Saratoga. Frankel said he is inclined to try and stretch out Ghostzapper here in the fall.

"With the speed he showed [Sunday], going long you might be able to sit there with him and turn him loose in the stretch," Frankel said. "Everybody wants to pigeonhole him as a sprinter; we don't know. He's an easy horse to rate."

Here is what was published in the DRF on why Frankel pulled out of the SIX FURLONG Vanderbilt Stakes. "Instead, Frankel will now point Ghostzapper to the Grade 3, $200,000 Philip Iselin Handicap at Monmouth Park on Aug. 21.

Frankel wouldn't come out and say it, but part of what went into his decision is his dissatisfaction with the weight assignments for the race. Ghostzapper was assigned 122 pounds, compared with 120 for Speightstown."

How can you be so sure that Ghostzapper would have run in the Classic, as a 4-year-old, if they had a Breeders Cup Dirt Mile. While the purse of the Classic is much greater---a Breeders Cup win, at the important commercial stallion distance of a mile on dirt, isn't exacly something to scoff at. Most Breeders Cup Classic meant horses, aren't looking to run in six furlong races in Mid-August.

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

The effect on the pace scenario in the Classic is a valid point and, in my opinion, the only effect the addtition of the BC Dirt Mile will have on the outcome of the BC Classic. However, if a horse can't win the BC Classic in a 10-12 horse field because there isn't enough pace then the horse just plain isn't good enough and shouldn't be winning the BC Classic anyways.

Bernardini probably (maybe almost certainly) beats Invasor this year if all of the cheap speed that was in that race (Brother Derek, Lawyer Ron etc.) opted for the dirt mile instead. With a slower pace, he wouldn't have been gunned as early as he was by Castallano. Giacomo, would of also not run as well.

A horse like Concern, would have never won the Classic without the intense pace setup he got.

I also happen to think fast-paced championship races are much more exciting to watch than the slower-paced tactical versions we are now more likely to see.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Absolutely he would have. He had won the 6.5 furlong Vosburgh by 6 1/2 lengths, in last-to-first fashion, in the supersonic final time of 1:14 3/5ths. In the words of Tom Durkin after the wire that day: "Just 1/5th off the track record in the 66th Vosburgh Stakes.....Ghostzapper...a sprinting force!" Instead of passing the BC Sprint...Frankel would have run him in the BC Dirt Mile after the Vosburgh. Which, he would have won.
Ghostzapper was a half sibling to confirmed sprinter City Zip...and Frankel waited until August of his 4-year-old season to stretch him out. Here are some quotes.

Before his 4yo debut in the 7 furlong Tom Fool "Trainer Bobby Frankel opted to skip the Breeders' Cup Sprint because he believed Ghostzapper's closing style would work against him at Santa Anita."

After his 4yo debut win in the Tom Fool "Frankel, who won the Tom Fool last year with Aldebaran, said Ghostzapper would be pointed to the $200,000 Alfred G. Vanderbilt at Saratoga on Aug. 14 as a prep for the Grade 1 Forego on Sept. 4, also at Saratoga. Frankel said he is inclined to try and stretch out Ghostzapper here in the fall.

"With the speed he showed [Sunday], going long you might be able to sit there with him and turn him loose in the stretch," Frankel said. "Everybody wants to pigeonhole him as a sprinter; we don't know. He's an easy horse to rate."

Here is what was published in the DRF on why Frankel pulled out of the SIX FURLONG Vanderbilt Stakes. "Instead, Frankel will now point Ghostzapper to the Grade 3, $200,000 Philip Iselin Handicap at Monmouth Park on Aug. 21.

Frankel wouldn't come out and say it, but part of what went into his decision is his dissatisfaction with the weight assignments for the race. Ghostzapper was assigned 122 pounds, compared with 120 for Speightstown."

How can you be so sure that Ghostzapper would have run in the Classic, as a 4-year-old, if they had a Breeders Cup Dirt Mile. While the purse of the Classic is much greater---a Breeders Cup win, at the important commercial stallion distance of a mile on dirt, isn't exacly something to scoff at. Most Breeders Cup Classic meant horses, aren't looking to run in six furlong races in Mid-August.




Bernardini probably (maybe almost certainly) beats Invasor this year if all of the cheap speed that was in that race (Brother Derek, Lawyer Ron etc.) opted for the dirt mile instead. With a slower pace, he wouldn't have been gunned as early as he was by Castallano. Giacomo, would of also not run as well.

A horse like Concern, would have never won the Classic without the intense pace setup he got.

I also happen to think fast-paced championship races are much more exciting to watch than the slower-paced tactical versions we are now more likely to see.

I just don't see that many owners not trying their horse in the Classic if they think he has a shot and way too many of them think there horse is better than it is. I actually think it is more likely that too many Milers run in the Classic on their connections delusional dreams that they can win the Classic. I agree that had GZ not gone in the Iselin that the Mile would have been likely. Once he went in that race he was going to the Classic though. So I guess the only question is whether a BC Dirt Mile would have changed their decision from the Iselin to the Vanderbilt.

I think Invasor wins the race either way. He could have sat a lot closer if there was less pace, he's been the type of horse that can alter his style to fit the pace scenario. I don't think he needed the pace to beat Bernardini. I also think that if there is a perceived lack of pace in the Classic then we will absolutely see some frontrunners considering the Mile decide to go to the Classic and see if they can wire the field since the Mile pace scenario will likely be unfavorable to them.

[Linny]

Would you rather run against Sun King and Lawyer Ron for $1m or Invasor and Premium Tap for $3m. If you have Bernardini, you go for the Classic, if you have a lesser G1 winner or a non G1 winner or have any doubts about your horse being a G1 quality 10f horse, you skip to the Dirt Mile.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Linny

Would you rather run against Sun King and Lawyer Ron for $1m or Invasor and Premium Tap for $3m. If you have Bernardini, you go for the Classic, if you have a lesser G1 winner or a non G1 winner or have any doubts about your horse being a G1 quality 10f horse, you skip to the Dirt Mile.

And Discreet Cat? The problem is horses like Lawyer Ron should have never been in the BC Classic to begin with. Too many connections of horses are convinced their horses are way better than they are and I doubt many of them are going to be convinced that their horse doesn't have a shot in the Classic so should go in the Dirt Mile.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

And Discreet Cat? The problem is horses like Lawyer Ron should have never been in the BC Classic to begin with. Too many connections of horses are convinced their horses are way better than they are and I doubt many of them are going to be convinced that their horse doesn't have a shot in the Classic so should go in the Dirt Mile.

lawyer ron is a multiple grade winner, and graded placed. he belonged.

volponi and arcangues probably didn't belong either...

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by merasmag

of plagarism-LOL...or else it's a matter of great minds thinking alike---these guys here aren't into racing so i can't turn the speakers on to hear your show...and the witching hour is THE BEST time to do racing stuff, not to mention i have actual work to do during the day-GO BEARS!!!

Your work during the day isn't of great concern to me.. The wake of your befoulings at night are. Your visits are akin to the nocturnal mischief of raccoons and possums, and as such, I tire of coming here every morning to find the garage rummaged through and the garbage cans overturned...

Your edgy chortle above doesn't approach anything resembling a retraction or apology despite a clear presentation belying your insult. I'm waiting...

Originally Posted by Kasept

Your work during the day isn't of great concern to me.. The wake of your befoulings at night are. Your visits are akin to the nocturnal mischief of raccoons and possums, and as such, I tire of coming here every morning to find the garage rummaged through and the garbage cans overturned...

Your edgy chortle above doesn't approach anything resembling a retraction or apology despite a clear presentation belying your insult. I'm waiting...

A raccoon!! Hahah!
Speaking of raccoons...I watched The Great Outdoors this weekend. Still as funny today as it was when I was a kid.

[Linny]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

And Discreet Cat? The problem is horses like Lawyer Ron should have never been in the BC Classic to begin with. Too many connections of horses are convinced their horses are way better than they are and I doubt many of them are going to be convinced that their horse doesn't have a shot in the Classic so should go in the Dirt Mile.

The problem is that if those horses don't belong in the Classic then they don't belong in the Dirt Mile either because they are supposed to BOTH be of the same caliber. Also, by giving those kind of horses an "out" you create dull Classics. I'm looking at the chart from '06. St Liam Flower Alley and Perfect Drift were 1-2-3. Take out the "chaff" from that running and you are lfet with those three, Borrego, maybe Sun King (who might have opted for the Dirt Mile if it existed) maybe Oratorio and Suave but who else? Super Frolic, Choctaw Nation, Starcraft, Sir Shackelton, Jack Sullivan? Were any of them really worthy?
Look at "07. After the top 3 finishers and Lava Man, were any of them truly legit G1, 10f horses? Most of the BC races (at least in retrospect) are "filler horses" who's connections thought it worth it to take a shot. They fill such races as the BC, the Derby etc because of the money and prestige. If they had a million dollar option where the level of competition was clearly easier AND they still get full Breeders' Cup credentials (horse and human) why not opt for it. It just another incentive (IMO) to not run against the very best.

[blackthroatedwind]

I think what some people are missing is that there aren't enough quality horses racing to fill the new races. It will simply cause both a dilution and lessening of quality.

Isn't it enough that the BC has cannabalized Grade 1 racing around the country......did they really also need to savage themselves?

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I think what some people are missing is that there aren't enough quality horses racing to fill the new races. It will simply cause both a dilution and lessening of quality.

Isn't it enough that the BC has cannabalized Grade 1 racing around the country......did they really also need to savage themselves?

I listed these before but do you really think a race comprised of the horses on this list would have been that terrible of a G1? And I don't think any of the other races would have been overly compromised by the loss of the horses listed below.

Discreet Cat
Silver Train
Badge of Silver
Sun King
Brother Derek
Lawyer Ron
Sharp Humor
Siren Lure
Wanderin Boy
Super Frolic
Mass Media
Commentator
Lewis Michael
Sir Greeley
War Front
It's No Joke
Magna Graduate
Papi Chullo
Straight Line
Awesome Twist