Lasix enhances performance

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Thousands of other vets aren't being published in the New York Times.

No. They are being published where their wealth of skill and knowledge about lasix matters, in research journals, pharmacology textbooks, clinical medicine applications.

Some crank wrote an opinion letter to the NYT. You're falling for it. Good luck.

You calling lasix, "drug them all" simply reveals that you remain completely ignorant about furosemide and it's long and successful in horses (and dogs, cats, people, tigers, bears, primates, etc)

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

What that book does very clearly is show that the bullshit that we are fed about what was going on in the pollyanna days prior to lasix use is not how it is actually was. While the testing has advanced it is very obvious that many of the same drugs that are being passed off as inventions of the modern day trainer were actually in use in the 70's and in some cases at much, much higher allowable levels.

Funny how everything was great back then but now those same things are the enemy of the horse.

It was a cheap shot, I'll admit. But the coincidence with the "30 years" refrain was too good to pass up.

At least Riot finally set me straight, so I paid the price in the end.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Riot

You calling lasix, "drug them all" simply reveals that you remain completely ignorant about furosemide and it's long and successful in horses (and dogs, cats, people, tigers, bears, primates, etc)

It is a drug, right?

Dogs, cats, people, tigers, bears, and primates and even etc. aren't being given Lasix to race while people bet millions of dollars on them. In this case, we even found out California lies to us about which horses actually get Lasix and which don't. That will go a long way to establishing trust with bettors.

Drug them all.

[Riot]

]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Interesting. 2 weeks ago you blasted me for suggesting that lasix affects the acid-base status of a horse. Now you're acting like you're the one bringing that information to the table. Pathetic.

Because, as has been previously mentioned, the affect on the acid-base balance of one injection of furosemide at a measured dose and time is immediately and successfully attenuated by the body's normal acid-base physiologic compensatory mechanisms, resulting in changes that have been repeatedly measured to be minor and unaffecting of performance.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

It is a drug, right?

Dogs, cats, people, tigers, bears, and primates and even etc. aren't being given Lasix to race while people bet millions of dollars on them. In this case, we even found out California lies to us about which horses actually get Lasix and which don't. That will go a long way to establishing trust with bettors.

Drug them all.

No. They are being given lasix most usually to save their lives.

That knowledge and understanding separates those that are licensed to use and dispense legend drugs - doctors, pharmacists, veterinarians, etc. - and the guy at the end of the bar stool expounding upon how much he knows about lasix because he read a NYT opinion piece that confirmed what he's determined to think.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Riot

]

Because, as has been previously mentioned, the affect on the acid-base balance of one injection of furosemide at a measured dose and time is immediately and successfully attenuated by the body's normal acid-base physiologic compensatory mechanisms, resulting in changes that have been repeatedly measured to be minor and unaffecting of performance.

spin, spin, spin, spin, spin.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Riot

No. They are being given lasix most usually to save their lives.

So completely irrelevant to the subject at hand, at least we agree on that.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

We'll just never see each other's point I guess. To me, you are saying since everyone can be drugged cheaply it is their problem if they don't use it. I'll never agree with that. If Lasix is so great, surely giving five pounds or a 50% edge in claiming prices to those not using isn't a big deal.

Drug the all Chuck, drug them all, that is the spirit.

As for Danzig's post about best for the horse, I've addressed this several times. If you want to believe this sport is about what is best for the horse, I have some prime coast land to sell you here in Oklahoma. I wish it was. I love horses. But we all know that isn't the case the majority of the time. Should I started listing more horses that were treated like disposable tissues?

Whatever...

I always love when people accuse one side of an argument with being stubborn and then make statements like "I'll never agree with that".

As for the welfare of horses I would think that those who profit off of the knowingly abused have blood on thier hands as well...

But dont fret, using lasix isnt really abuse no matter how hard you neutrally rail against it.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

So completely irrelevant to the subject at hand, at least we agree on that.

No, the pharmacology and mechanism of action of a drug is 100% "relevant".

You being unable to comprehend that just makes you "irrelevant".

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

It was a cheap shot, I'll admit. But the coincidence with the "30 years" refrain was too good to pass up.

At least Riot finally set me straight, so I paid the price in the end.

Won't make that mistake again will you? lol

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

spin, spin, spin, spin, spin.

Why don't you go off and try to find out why the measurable TCO2 level of a horse on lasix (be it standing in a stall, running on a treadmill, running in a race, or in an intensive care unit at an equine hospital with acid/base disturbances) is between certain very well-known and predictable values, and the TCO2 of horses that have received illegal milkshakes or other alkalynizing agents is something else entirely?

Maybe check the NYT opinion page.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Riot

]

Because, as has been previously mentioned, the affect on the acid-base balance of one injection of furosemide at a measured dose and time is immediately and successfully attenuated by the body's normal acid-base physiologic compensatory mechanisms, resulting in changes that have been repeatedly measured to be minor and unaffecting of performance.

The above sure reads like a "compensatory mechanism".

Don't be getting all acerbic on me now. Buffer your embarrasment some warm milk.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Riot

No, the pharmacology and mechanism of action of a drug is 100% "relevant".

You being unable to comprehend that just makes you "irrelevant".

It would be if this were about making sure horses live long, healthy lives...but it isn't.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

The above sure reads like a "compensatory mechanism".

Don't be getting all acerbic on me now. Buffer your embarrasment some warm milk.

And spell check.

I'm sorry you don't know basic, high-school physiology (ever hear of lactic acid?) thus feel compelled to make fun of what you don't know.

Once again, with feeling ...

Lasix similar to effect of a milkshake? Ridiculous. Lasix has a minor adjustment to elevation of pH (we know that, because that has actually been measured multiple times) but nowhere near what a milkshake does (we know that, because it's been actually measured multiple times).

In fact, our intimate knowledge of the difference in blood pH effects between heat, humidity, lasix, certain feeds, etc. and what a milkshake does is why testing TCO2 levels are set precisely where they are.

Because we know what pH a shot of lasix gives. And we know what pH alkalynizing agents get. They are different.

We have used furosemide internationally for 40 years in the horse, not to mention multiple other species. We know exactly what it does, and how, and why. This is simple, straightforward, basic medical science.

I'm done sparring with the loony conspiracy theorists.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

It might be useful to delve into the side effects of lasix, given that we've been taking for granted that it "causes no harm" in multiple threads now. Lasix effects the hydration status and acid-bace balance of horses about to undergo strenuous exercise. As a result, the potential exists for horses to be exposed to disturbances related to those parameters. These might include "thumps", "tying up", and colic. It would be interesting to know the frequency of these side effects. Though never proven definitely, an adverse reaction to lasix administration was suggested as the cause of Life At Ten's performance at the 2010 Breeder's Cup. Given the public fallout that occurred afterwards, was that an acceptable alternative to a horse bleeding out the nose in front of the grandstands?

i think the fallout had to do with the fact that a lot of bettors lost out on betting a horse who should have been scratched. i know lasix was suggested as a possible reason for her lackluster performance.
now, when i read the other day that there was an 80% reduction in visible bleeding by horses in NY once the lasix ban was lifted....well, what else is there to say? do we really want an 80% increase in bleeders? we already have negative attention because of breakdowns, what will happen if horses start coming by the grandstand with blood coming out of their nostrils? or horses collapsing because of a bad enough hemorrage? and that does happen. i firmly believe that it's better to prevent something than to take a risk-that it's a lesser 'evil' if you will.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

We'll just never see each other's point I guess. To me, you are saying since everyone can be drugged cheaply it is their problem if they don't use it. I'll never agree with that. If Lasix is so great, surely giving five pounds or a 50% edge in claiming prices to those not using isn't a big deal.

Drug the all Chuck, drug them all, that is the spirit.

As for Danzig's post about best for the horse, I've addressed this several times. If you want to believe this sport is about what is best for the horse, I have some prime coast land to sell you here in Oklahoma. I wish it was. I love horses. But we all know that isn't the case the majority of the time. Should I started listing more horses that were treated like disposable tissues?

i'm asking what's best as in better to take a risk of bleeding, or use the lasix? i know there are plenty of people who don't give a rats behind about what's really best for the horses.
and i see someone has reared their head, so i guess i'm done with this thread anway....

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i think the fallout had to do with the fact that a lot of bettors lost out on betting a horse who should have been scratched. i know lasix was suggested as a possible reason for her lackluster performance.
now, when i read the other day that there was an 80% reduction in visible bleeding by horses in NY once the lasix ban was lifted....well, what else is there to say? do we really want an 80% increase in bleeders? we already have negative attention because of breakdowns, what will happen if horses start coming by the grandstand with blood coming out of their nostrils? or horses collapsing because of a bad enough hemorrage? and that does happen. i firmly believe that it's better to prevent something than to take a risk-that it's a lesser 'evil' if you will.

You realize if two horse visibly bleed in a week, an "80% reduction" means that now 1.6 do, right? In any case, the is certainly NOT the equivalent of an 80% increase in bleeders.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The side effects of lasix are minor at worst.

Anyone who believes that the horse had an adverse rection to lasix is a very trusting soul.

maybe she had a liver-ache.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

But dont fret, using lasix isnt really abuse no matter how hard you neutrally rail against it.

Cool, keep drugging them all then, whether they need it or not. You have a future in pharmacological sales.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Riot

I'm done sparring with the loony conspiracy theorists.

You were done when I exposed your cross-thread backpedal. Don't kid yourself.

You have been neutralized. I suggest going back to the basics.