Biancone, cold with 2 year olds, my theory why

You know one of th biggest shocks to me this meet has been that patrick Biancone has been completely stone cold as ice with his babies. One thing you could always count on with Biancone was that he would send out very fast expensive babies who were all cranked up and ready to roll. They have been beyond horrible. Yesterday a very well bred and expensive NY bred two year old debuted and was just awful. All of his babies have been except City Snitch who won very nicely on opening day(he was a 2nd time starter). So last night in reviewing what had been going on up here in hopes of reversing some of these terrible narrow losses I've been taking up here I got to looking at Binacone and why he was so uncharacteristically awful. The answer why to me stood out like a sore thumb upon review.
In past years he prepped all of his stable at saratoga's legendary Oklahoma training track. Very deep and safe, its been utilized by guys like Shug, Mott, Zito, Pletcher, and Biancone for the last decade to get horses ready to roll. Those guys arrive when it opens in the spring and stay until fall. This year patrick did something different, a look at ALL of his babies showed that he chose to get them all ready to run at Turfway park with its polytrack. Only City Snitch has won, and he had raced at CD, where he lost at a short price and then was sent to saratoga for his works before his win. Its pretty obvious guys that the Polytrack preperation has left his babies without speed and stamina. Its not even debatable unless you wanna contend that ALL of his babies are just no good this year.
It simply looks as if those(including myself) who feel that polytrack is not even a distant cousin of dirt as far as how it translates to dirt form have a point. I'm going to declare right now that I will bet that Biancone's babies will start running and firing in their 2nd starts up here. Also look to play his firsters as the meet goes on after they have worked at the training track up here a few times. The only winner he had fit that profile(City Snitch) and I'm extermely confident that there will be some nice priced two year old winners to follow when they run back up here later in the meet.
Don't say i didn't warn you when this starts happening.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by oracle80

You know one of th biggest shocks to me this meet has been that patrick Biancone has been completely stone cold as ice with his babies. One thing you could always count on with Biancone was that he would send out very fast expensive babies who were all cranked up and ready to roll. They have been beyond horrible. Yesterday a very well bred and expensive NY bred two year old debuted and was just awful. All of his babies have been except City Snitch who won very nicely on opening day(he was a 2nd time starter). So last night in reviewing what had been going on up here in hopes of reversing some of these terrible narrow losses I've been taking up here I got to looking at Binacone and why he was so uncharacteristically awful. The answer why to me stood out like a sore thumb upon review.
In past years he prepped all of his stable at saratoga's legendary Oklahoma training track. Very deep and safe, its been utilized by guys like Shug, Mott, Zito, Pletcher, and Biancone for the last decade to get horses ready to roll. Those guys arrive when it opens in the spring and stay until fall. This year patrick did something different, a look at ALL of his babies showed that he chose to get them all ready to run at Turfway park with its polytrack. Only City Snitch has won, and he had raced at CD, where he lost at a short price and then was sent to saratoga for his works before his win. Its pretty obvious guys that the Polytrack preperation has left his babies without speed and stamina. Its not even debatable unless you wanna contend that ALL of his babies are just no good this year.
It simply looks as if those(including myself) who feel that polytrack is not even a distant cousin of dirt as far as how it translates to dirt form have a point. I'm going to declare right now that I will bet that Biancone's babies will start running and firing in their 2nd starts up here. Also look to play his firsters as the meet goes on after they have worked at the training track up here a few times. The only winner he had fit that profile(City Snitch) and I'm extermely confident that there will be some nice priced two year old winners to follow when they run back up here later in the meet.
Don't say i didn't warn you when this starts happening.

At first, I thought that your hypothesis was pretty good but the more I think about it, it really shouldn't make a difference what surface the horses are trained on. Horses usually either like a surface or they don't like a surface. They don't usually take time to adjust to a new surface. For example, you see horses run on the turf who have never had a single workout on the turf, yet these horses win all the time. It's not as if they run better in their second start on the turf. If they like it, they usally run good on it the first time. They don't need time to get used to it.

If horsess can train exclusively on the dirt and then run well when they race on the grass, I don't see why horses that train exclusively on polytrack would have a problem racing on regular dirt.

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

At first, I thought that your hypothesis was pretty good but the more I think about it, it really shouldn't make a difference what surface the horses are trained on. Horses usually either like a surface or they don't like a surface. They don't usually take time to adjust to a new surface. For example, you see horses run on the turf who have never had a single workout on the turf, yet these horses win all the time. It's not as if they run better in their second start on the turf. If they like it, they usally run good on it the first time. They don't need time to get used to it.

If horsess can train exclusively on the dirt and then run well when they race on the grass, I don't see why horses that train exclusively on polytrack would have a problem racing on regular dirt.

Rup,
different muscle groups are used to negotiate different surfaces.

[Gander]

Just like humans. When you run on a treadmill, you use different muscles than you do when you run on the road. When you run on a sandy beach, you use different muscles than you do when you run on a grassy soccer field.

As far as training goes, it all depends on the person running. There are olympic marathoners who have trained exclsuively on treadmills, and do not run outside until a few weeks before the actual race. Conversely there are those who never use treadmills, rather do all their running on the same surface the marathons are run on.

[alysheba4]

although its difficult to move my 6-2 250 lb body on either surface......... i must say the treadmill is way easier for me.

Originally Posted by alysheba4

although its difficult to move my 6-2 250 lb body on either surface......... i must say the treadmill is way easier for me.

I would love to be 250. I have a hard time moving my 269 body from the ice cream bowl. Screw a treadmill.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by alysheba4

although its difficult to move my 6-2 250 lb body on either surface......... i must say the treadmill is way easier for me.

This 5'4", 115lb'er finds treadmills easier, too. I get very knee sore running on pavement. I guess I wouldn't be suited to the California racetracks... or maybe I just have soundness issues.

Maybe the treadmill is easier for me because I can run on a slight incline, which seems to put less stress on my knees.

Originally Posted by oracle80

Rup,
different muscle groups are used to negotiate different surfaces.

This is comical.

Some of the great grass horses don't ever even see the turf except when they race on it.

Please explain the dirt to turf angle and the turf to dirt angle. I guess those different muscles magically reappear. LOL.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by boldruler

This is comical.

Some of the great grass horses don't ever even see the turf except when they race on it.

Please explain the dirt to turf angle and the turf to dirt angle. I guess those different muscles magically reappear. LOL.

it is amazing how you magically DISAPPEAR....

[Damascus '67]

Originally Posted by boldruler

This is comical.

Some of the great grass horses don't ever even see the turf except when they race on it.

Please explain the dirt to turf angle and the turf to dirt angle. I guess those different muscles magically reappear. LOL.

Do you and Nostradamus do it on the turf or dirt, or do you two have a dirt to turf angle???

Originally Posted by Damascus '67

Do you and Nostradamus do it on the turf or dirt, or do you two have a dirt to turf angle???

Dude, you need to work on your material. Try something better, please.

As for you, do you get on all fours or just your knees for Oracle?

[zippyneedsawin]

Originally Posted by boldruler

This is comical.

Some of the great grass horses don't ever even see the turf except when they race on it.

Please explain the dirt to turf angle and the turf to dirt angle. I guess those different muscles magically reappear. LOL.

Why do you think most turf horses have a higher leg kick than dirt horses?

Originally Posted by zippyneedsawin

Why do you think most turf horses have a higher leg kick than dirt horses?

Their higher kick is part of their action. They don't get a higher kick, it is something they have.

Showing Up is a great example and I think even Barbaro is a good example. They didn't develop muscles to run on the turf, they just have an action that is better suited to turf racing.

Watch how many races are won on the dirt from the front and then watch how many races are won on the dirt from coming behind.

Horses develop muscles for running certain distances, not really for running on dirt or turf.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Rup,
different muscle groups are used to negotiate different surfaces.

I have heard that too. I think it's Michael Dickinson who will actually switches off every other day and gallops his horses on the turf one day and the dirt the next day. I think he believes that one surface strengthens the tendons and ligaments while the other surface strengthens the muscles or something like that.

Even assuming that is true, we know that turf horses don't need to train on the turf to run well on the turf. I don't know if the same would hold true the opposite way. This would never happen but I wonder if a horse who only trained on the grass would still run well his first time on the dirt.

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I have heard that too. I think it's Michael Dickinson who will actually switches off every other day and gallops his horses on the turf one day and the dirt the next day. I think he believes that one surface strengthens the tendons and ligaments while the other surface strengthens the muscles or something like that.

Even assuming that is true, we know that turf horses don't need to train on the turf to run well on the turf. I don't know if the same would hold true the opposite way. This would never happen but I wonder if a horse who only trained on the grass would still run well his first time on the dirt.

Ask Giant's Causeway.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by boldruler

Ask Giant's Causeway.

I'm sure he trained on the dirt all week before that race. I tend to agree with you though. Even though I think there is definitely some truth to building different muscles on different surfaces, I still think that if a horse likes a surface that he will run well on it even the first time. By the same token, if a horse doesn't like a surface, he probably won't run well on it even if he trains on it every day.

[Pointg5]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I have heard that too. I think it's Michael Dickinson who will actually switches off every other day and gallops his horses on the turf one day and the dirt the next day. I think he believes that one surface strengthens the tendons and ligaments while the other surface strengthens the muscles or something like that.

Even assuming that is true, we know that turf horses don't need to train on the turf to run well on the turf. I don't know if the same would hold true the opposite way. This would never happen but I wonder if a horse who only trained on the grass would still run well his first time on the dirt.

I once heard Dickinson say that instead of breaking down a horse by training it on dirt, he strengthens them, by training on Turf. If horse physiology is anything similar to human physiology, you have to break down muscle to make it stronger. That statement didn't make much sense to me...

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by Pointg5

I once heard Dickinson say that instead of breaking down a horse by training it on dirt, he strengthens them, by training on Turf. If horse physiology is anything similar to human physiology, you have to break down muscle to make it stronger. That statement didn't make much sense to me...

Didn't he mean breaking down a horse as in not having them "break down?"

Originally Posted by Pointg5

I once heard Dickinson say that instead of breaking down a horse by training it on dirt, he strengthens them, by training on Turf. If horse physiology is anything similar to human physiology, you have to break down muscle to make it stronger. That statement didn't make much sense to me...

Does this guy ever win anything?

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Hmmmmm... I was kind of wondering the same thing, because I have been betting all of his babies wondering when he will heat up. Very interesting theory, and you might be dead on. I hope you are, because it's an angle I'm going to follow.

Da Hoss, in about ten minutes the offical polytrack cheeleader will come on and bash me, I don't care. I didn't set out last night to bash polytrack, I set out to do a thorough review and explore some angles and possible theories and explanations about what had been going on up here.
Biancone's babies have abeen shockingly awful. One thing guys who follow patrick know is that his babies NEVER have a shortage of speed, to dsay the least. Other than City Snitch(who got this ball rolling in my head when i noted he also was beaten at a short price in his debut, but obviously had a tightener race in that effort and then importantly worked up here after that race instead of Turfway) his babies have been atrocious. I mean the closet he came was with a 750 grand two year old in training purchase who lost a NY bred race, ouch. I got to looking at the pattern of their works and saw that the Poly had to be the answer. Its the only thing hes done differently. I'm willing to bet strongly that as the meet goes on that some of those disappointing firsters come back and fire 2nd time out and that some of his future firsters who have had 2-3 works up here will run much better than the firsters who came straight off polytrack.