Officially Crap

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

the oaks was bad ..the whole field went on to do well in a bad year..imo..

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

the oaks was bad ..the whole field went on to do well in a bad year..imo..

Noones gonna argue that this 3YO filly crop was spectacular. Figure wise they were slow.
Not many from the crop will do much else. Pine is sadly gone, Bush looks likes shes over the top and will be hard pressed to return to form, Balance got banged up pretty good.
Wait A while should romp all next year, I think teammate may turnout to be a good 4Yo, and Wonder Lady got banged up in the Alabama and is ok now and training for a 4Yo campaign. Her race in the CCA was after she was discovered to have had a problem(which I and a guy from IEAH posted about on this board before the race) fixed. She ought to do very well as a 4YO. Shes pointing at the restricted 4YO mare races at Santa Anita this winter. Round Pond will clearly be the division leader in the older mare category as most of her competitors are going to the shed.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Well I mean as far as the division goes, which is all you have to compare it to, it was the strongest race in the division.
Balance got hurt as well in there but she was a fine filly beforehand.
Numbers 2-6 in Watchmakers rankings all ran in the Oaks.
I'm not making an historical comparison to this crop to crops of yesteryear, I'm saying it was the strongest race run this year talent wise in the division. Find me one stronger.

That doesn't make it a good race. The only horses that could compete in this year's races restricted to 3YOs are this year's 3YOs ( I know....I'm making a point ). Balance ran a couple OK races in California, and then didn't run a step in either the Ashland or KY Oaks, so I will withhold judgement on the 3YO fillies from CA. Wild Spin sure had a nice season.

It was a horrendous group of 3YO fillies this year, and only Pine Island seemed to be of genuinely quality, and she was a very late developer. Frankly she was still learning a lot when second in both the Mother Goose and CCA Oaks ( where she didn't get a particularly clever ride either ). The 3YO filly with the second best performances this year? To me it's clear....Teammate. What do you think of her?

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

That doesn't make it a good race. The only horses that could compete in this year's races restricted to 3YOs are this year's 3YOs ( I know....I'm making a point ). Balance ran a couple OK races in California, and then didn't run a step in either the Ashland or KY Oaks, so I will withhold judgement on the 3YO fillies from CA. Wild Spin sure had a nice season.

It was a horrendous group of 3YO fillies this year, and only Pine Island seemed to be of genuinely quality, and she was a very late developer. Frankly she was still learning a lot when second in both the Mother Goose and CCA Oaks ( where she didn't get a particularly clever ride either ). The 3YO filly with the second best performances this year? To me it's clear....Teammate. What do you think of her?

I think Wonder lady's CCA and teammate's Gulf race were the 3rd best and 4th best performances.
Pine's pair in the Alabama and Gazelle were the two best to me.
Wonder's CCA was very good. There was a strong outside bias that day(Spite the Devil actually won a race, thats how strong it was) and Pine was forced wide but that was the place to be and she had strong fractions to run into. Wonder took hot heat between horses the whole backside and was on the dead rail and still dug in in a race that got a very good number Beyer and sheet wise.
See my other post, I think teammate will have a much better 4Yo year, and you can toss WLA's Alabama as she emerged banged up.
But neither will beat Round Pond, she should own this division next year. The others will play duck, duck, goose.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

That doesn't make it a good race. The only horses that could compete in this year's races restricted to 3YOs are this year's 3YOs ( I know....I'm making a point ). Balance ran a couple OK races in California, and then didn't run a step in either the Ashland or KY Oaks, so I will withhold judgement on the 3YO fillies from CA. Wild Spin sure had a nice season.

It was a horrendous group of 3YO fillies this year, and only Pine Island seemed to be of genuinely quality, and she was a very late developer. Frankly she was still learning a lot when second in both the Mother Goose and CCA Oaks ( where she didn't get a particularly clever ride either ). The 3YO filly with the second best performances this year? To me it's clear....Teammate. What do you think of her?

I wasn't a big fan of Teammate at any point so maybe i'm speaking with a built in bias, but I have to give #2 to Bushfire. She did win some big races at multiple distances and ran a bang up 3rd in the Oaks (all the other speed horses were nowhere to be found at the wire.) #3 goes to Lemons Forever, and if she comes back at 4 with some better early speed she'll be dangerous and it's not impossible considering most LDK's are late developers.

[blackthroatedwind]

You have a bias because of your relationship with Wonder Lady Anne, and she did run well that day, but it was the slop and it was a trainer who doesn't exactly get consistent campaigns from horses. In the context of the race she did run well, how much of an outside bias there was that day is debateable, but I will try to go back and watch those races. The problem is the effort is incongruous with her other efforts this year so it feels like more of an aberation than a defining race.

I believe Teamate's effort at Gulfstream was clearly better, as was her second in the Alabama ( she dueled in a very solid pace and still just lost while beating the rest of the field by a substantial margin ) and frankly one couold easily argue her Gazelle was better.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by philcski

I wasn't a big fan of Teammate at any point so maybe i'm speaking with a built in bias, but I have to give #2 to Bushfire. She did win some big races at multiple distances and ran a bang up 3rd in the Oaks (all the other speed horses were nowhere to be found at the wire.) #3 goes to Lemons Forever, and if she comes back at 4 with some better early speed she'll be dangerous and it's not impossible considering most LDK's are late developers.

I won't argue with that. I was no big fan of Bushfire's, as her races were just too slow, but she certainly ran the best race in the KY Oaks.

Let's face it....this was a poor group.

Next year's older fillies and mares is hardly inspiring. Gee, I wonder what trainer will end up dominating the division.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

You have a bias because of your relationship with Wonder Lady Anne, and she did run well that day, but it was the slop and it was a trainer who doesn't exactly get consistent campaigns from horses. In the context of the race she did run well, how much of an outside bias there was that day is debateable, but I will try to go back and watch those races. The problem is the effort is incongruous with her other efforts this year so it feels like more of an aberation than a defining race.

I believe Teamate's effort at Gulfstream was clearly better, as was her second in the Alabama ( she dueled in a very solid pace and still just lost while beating the rest of the field by a substantial margin ) and frankly one couold easily argue her Gazelle was better.

She hated the slop in her race at Gulf.
If I'm biased its because I know what was wrong with her before the CCA and what was fixed.(I posted about it before the fact, not after as did someone else). She flat outran Pine, Pine was with bias and had afast pace to run at. She was just better than Pine that day, as you said Pine was still learning and I think she was gonna be a great.
As far as knocking Rick with consistent campaigns, I thought his job with St Liam last year was one of the best jobs in recent memory. He won grade ones from Feb- to BCC and the horse never had a break. A true year long campaign.
Only recently has he gotten the type of top horseflesh to judge him on. His career was claimers for the most part until recently.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I won't argue with that. I was no big fan of Bushfire's, as her races were just too slow, but she certainly ran the best race in the KY Oaks.

Let's face it....this was a poor group.

Next year's older fillies and mares is hardly inspiring. Gee, I wonder what trainer will end up dominating the division.

Aren't most of Todds going to the shed BTW?
I believe Spun and OOnagh are, and I know Fleet is. What else does he have?

[philcski]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I won't argue with that. I was no big fan of Bushfire's, as her races were just too slow, but she certainly ran the best race in the KY Oaks.

Let's face it....this was a poor group.

Next year's older fillies and mares is hardly inspiring. Gee, I wonder what trainer will end up dominating the division.

No question they were, and the scary thing is unless something happens, fast, next year's 3YO's will be even worse.

I'm going to make a longshot guess on the trainer as... the guy whose barn shingle is in my photo. SHOCKER (then again he could enter next year's BC distaff with the favorite, 3rd choice, and 5th choice and end up with a dnf and two other also rans)

[philcski]

Originally Posted by oracle80

She hated the slop in her race at Gulf.
If I'm biased its because I know what was wrong with her before the CCA and what was fixed.(I posted about it before the fact, not after as did someone else). She flat outran Pine, Pine was with bias and had afast pace to run at. She was just better than Pine that day, as you said Pine was still learning and I think she was gonna be a great.
As far as knocking Rick with consistent campaigns, I thought his job with St Liam last year was one of the best jobs in recent memory. He won grade ones from Feb- to BCC and the horse never had a break. A true year long campaign.
Only recently has he gotten the type of top horseflesh to judge him on. His career was claimers for the most part until recently.

Because anyone who respects their horseflesh won't send him good stock.
Anyone whose crazy enough to consider running a horse for the 3rd time in a week off two monster efforts doesn't respect their stock.

I'll give you St. Liam, however.

Originally Posted by philcski

Because anyone who respects their horseflesh won't send him good stock.
Anyone whose crazy enough to consider running a horse for the 3rd time in a week off two monster efforts doesn't respect their stock.

I'll give you St. Liam, however.

really?
So four roses, stonerside, Ed Evans, William Warren, Ahmed Zayat have no respect for their horseflesh?
Hes 9th in earnings this year, and hes done it with far fewer starters than in previous years.
As far as Indian War Dance goes, I can assure you that the owners wanetd to do that. They are still stuck on him, and stuck good. They claimed him for a bundle at the end of 2003, he earned very little in 2004, didn't race at all in 2005. Toss in the operation cost, and day rate and vet bills and shoes for 3 years, and you got a bad claim, despite the three wins. They wanna win as mush as they can while hes sharp and hopefully lose him.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

Originally Posted by oracle80

She hated the slop in her race at Gulf.
If I'm biased its because I know what was wrong with her before the CCA and what was fixed.(I posted about it before the fact, not after as did someone else). She flat outran Pine, Pine was with bias and had afast pace to run at. She was just better than Pine that day, as you said Pine was still learning and I think she was gonna be a great.
As far as knocking Rick with consistent campaigns, I thought his job with St Liam last year was one of the best jobs in recent memory. He won grade ones from Feb- to BCC and the horse never had a break. A true year long campaign.
Only recently has he gotten the type of top horseflesh to judge him on. His career was claimers for the most part until recently.

wla won ..cant argue that is fact..she was not the best horse that day..javy clearly blew the ride on a much the best horse..pine island..

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

wla won ..cant argue that is fact..she was not the best horse that day..javy clearly blew the ride on a much the best horse..pine island..

Well hooves I know what the track bias was, all outside closers, I know Pine was wide with the bias, and I know the fractions of 47 flat on a slow track set it up for her run. She wasn't best, and she couldn't get there.
Her future races were better, but she wasn't that good yet, she got beat by Bush the same way with no excuses in her prior.
You can't use future races to argue that a race in the past was better than it was.
You don't remember the bias that day huh?

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

what was the date on that....ill re watch the race..

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Aren't most of Todds going to the shed BTW?
I believe Spun and OOnagh are, and I know Fleet is. What else does he have?

I have no idea who's staying but I'm sure he'll pick up 13 or 14 more. Clones?

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

what was the date on that....ill re watch the race..

Hooves watch all the races that day. It was on July 22nd.
I made a little money on the race but blew my pik-4's and pik-3's when Spite The ****ing Devil won his only race of the year, flying widest of all.
One or two speed wins that day, but those were well out in the center of the track.
Fractions were slow all day, WLA battled in between Sugar Shake and Teammate and put one away and then the other. Fractions were fast and on the turn I was cursing out Prado and thought she was dead. Noone was more shocked than I was that she held on. Against the bias and fast fraction duel, with Pine going wide with the bias and having that pace to run at, Pine woulda won if she was better that day.
Pine stepped up in the bama, and moreso in the Gazelle.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I have no idea who's staying but I'm sure he'll pick up 13 or 14 more. Clones?

LOL!!!
Todd doesn't seem to have as much for next year as he did going into this past year.
I think all three of those fillies are gone. In older horse division he has only Lawyer Ron.
I think Wait A While comes back, and has soem nice two year olds in both divisons, but nothing dominating.
Frankel seemed just as invincible a few years back and noone keeps it going on the same level forever.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

i just watched it again my conclusions we right on javy went 8 wide and still closed 12 lenths ..pine was best by a few with a better ride..how can you say anything to the back up the fact he got beat by a head ..im puzzled to think an exp like yourself would say that... if not for the "home team" cheerleading..

[SniperSB23]

Pletcher should also have Pool Land back who is dangerous when things go her way.