Shirreffs' latest gem

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Scav

Her dirt wins have been her best wins IMO. You can't change who shows up to face her, if there wasn't so many graded stakes races then there would be competitive races, why does everyone have such a hard on for her to ship across the country. I don't see people shipping from NY all the way to California every single day.

When she drills Rachel Alexandra they will blame something or someone. When she wins the BC Classic this year, people will still find something comedy to say. Its a tiresome argument.

Just because your boner from being at Santa Anita and 'hearing the crowd roar' still hasn't gone down, doesn't mean we can't be dissatisfied with her campaign. If she beats Rachel and wins the BCC, it'll make me sad, not 'comedy'. Not sad because she proved me wrong or some other nonsense. Sad because we had a truly great horse whose talent was completely wasted for four years running on a joke surface against almost nothing but crows.

[Thunder Gulch]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Just to repeat what I said in an edited post earlier, I understand where you are all coming from. The grade 1s against fillies on the west coast are not very challening races for Z. As others have said, these races are almost like exhibitions. It is somewhat boring to watch Z beat up on medicore fillies. I agree with that. I see where you're all coming from. I understand why you would be frustrated. I don't blame you. But by the same token, I understand why the connections are doing what they are doing and I can't really fault them at this point. If they would have refused to face RA in the AB earlier in the year, then I would have faulted them. But they were actually eager to face RA. At this point, it's different. They are very close to their goal and they don't want to do anything to screw it up. I can't blame them . I see where they're coming from. I also see where you are all coming from and I understand your frustration.

Here's another fallacy you Zen folks can't seem to get through your heads. It isn't about facing Rachel Alexandra. Get that. It's about PROVING you are a great horse by beating the best competition in the best races. The owners of the best horses always looked for the best races to show their stuff in, but these guys are different. They are more interested in protecting a record than running against the best horses. The filly crop of older horses is pathetic, but at least they could try to beat Misremembered in the Big Cap. That shouldn't be a problem if she is all you think she is.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Thunder Gulch

Here's another fallacy you Zen folks can't seem to get through your heads. It isn't about facing Rachel Alexandra. Get that. It's about PROVING you are a great horse by beating the best competition in the best races. The owners of the best horses always looked for the best races to show their stuff in, but these guys are different. They are more interested in protecting a record than running against the best horses. The filly crop of older horses is pathetic, but at least they could try to beat Misremembered in the Big Cap. That shouldn't be a problem if she is all you think she is.

BUT HOW MANY TIMES DID PERSONAL ENSIGN BEAT MALES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!! SHE'LL DIE IF SHE FACES MALES THAT OFTEN!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Just because your boner from being at Santa Anita and 'hearing the crowd roar' still hasn't gone down, doesn't mean we can't be dissatisfied with her campaign. If she beats Rachel and wins the BCC, it'll make me sad, not 'comedy'. Not sad because she proved me wrong or some other nonsense. Sad because we had a truly great horse whose talent was completely wasted for four years running on a joke surface against almost nothing but crows.

Originally Posted by Thunder Gulch

Here's another fallacy you Zen folks can't seem to get through your heads. It isn't about facing Rachel Alexandra. Get that. It's about PROVING you are a great horse by beating the best competition in the best races. The owners of the best horses always looked for the best races to show their stuff in, but these guys are different. They are more interested in protecting a record than running against the best horses. The filly crop of older horses is pathetic, but at least they could try to beat Misremembered in the Big Cap. That shouldn't be a problem if she is all you think she is.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Just because your boner from being at Santa Anita and 'hearing the crowd roar' still hasn't gone down, doesn't mean we can't be dissatisfied with her campaign. If she beats Rachel and wins the BCC, it'll make me sad, not 'comedy'. Not sad because she proved me wrong or some other nonsense. Sad because we had a truly great horse whose talent was completely wasted for four years running on a joke surface against almost nothing but crows.

Who says I am not dissatisfied? Quite honestly, I feel all the races she runs this year are bonus because she was suppose to be retired.

She can't control who shows up to run, she ran at Oaklawn and no one showed up, same would happen in NY or anywhere else.

Oh, and sorry for being excited about being at the great race place for a great race, sure beats being onsite and cheering one of those NY bred turf sprints home....

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Scav

Who says I am not dissatisfied? Quite honestly, I feel all the races she runs this year are bonus because she was suppose to be retired.

Um, doesn't that mean you're not dissatisfied?

Originally Posted by Scav

She can't control who shows up to run, she ran at Oaklawn and no one showed up, same would happen in NY or anywhere else.

Then take on some of those monstrous males in your backyard. Or is that too stressful for her?

Originally Posted by Scav

Oh, and sorry for being excited about being at the great race place for a great race, sure beats being onsite and cheering one of those NY bred turf sprints home....

Yeah, because I've never seen any big races living in NY. Go back to trying to get people outside of Illinois to care about Arlington Million Day.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by Scav

Who says I am not dissatisfied? Quite honestly, I feel all the races she runs this year are bonus because she was suppose to be retired.

She can't control who shows up to run, she ran at Oaklawn and no one showed up, same would happen in NY or anywhere else.

Oh, and sorry for being excited about being at the great race place for a great race, sure beats being onsite and cheering one of those NY bred turf sprints home....

Has your boner really not gone down since the BC last year? That must hurt.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Um, doesn't that mean you're not dissatisfied?



Then take on some of those monstrous males in your backyard. Or is that too stressful for her?



Yeah, because I've never seen any big races living in NY. Go back to trying to get people outside of Illinois to care about Arlington Million Day.

I care about Arlington Million Day.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Um, doesn't that mean you're not dissatisfied?

Then take on some of those monstrous males in your backyard. Or is that too stressful for her?

Yeah, because I've never seen any big races living in NY. Go back to trying to get people outside of Illinois to care about Arlington Million Day.

This is probably what I am dissatisfied with the most, but it isn't like I am going to change, so why bitch about it. I don't disagree with you about her racing in open races.

Yeah, that is exactly what I am doing on Million Day, I can absolutely give a **** about Arlington right now.

So smart Chief Message Board

[Scav]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Has your boner really not gone down since the BC last year? That must hurt.

I was ready to go after that race but then when I looked in my pocket and saw a win ticket on Gio Ponti that readyness went away pretty quickly.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Thunder Gulch

Here's another fallacy you Zen folks can't seem to get through your heads. It isn't about facing Rachel Alexandra. Get that. It's about PROVING you are a great horse by beating the best competition in the best races. The owners of the best horses always looked for the best races to show their stuff in, but these guys are different. They are more interested in protecting a record than running against the best horses. The filly crop of older horses is pathetic, but at least they could try to beat Misremembered in the Big Cap. That shouldn't be a problem if she is all you think she is.

You say, "The owners of the best horses always looked for the best races to show their stuff in, but these guys are different."

That is untrue. Most of the great mares usually run against mares. Some of them run against the boys sometimes, but that's not really expected and that's not really the norm. If you look at the records of most great mares, the majority of them usually ran against mares. It may be a little different in Europe, but not over here.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

You say, "The owners of the best horses always looked for the best races to show their stuff in, but these guys are different."

That is untrue. Most of the great mares usually run against mares. Some of them run against the boys sometimes, but that's not really expected and that's not really the norm. If you look at the records of most great mares, the majority of them usually ran against mares. It may be a little different in Europe, but not over here.

I knew it.

Find me a great mare who ran against the level of dreck mares that Zenyatta is running against, and you might have an actual point. Otherwise it's apples and oranges and yet another excuse for her.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Really? So now the discussion is about broodmare value? Nice deflection. We're talking about level of competition, and it has been piss poor. Period. Enough with the excuses.

The point about broodmare value is that as long as grade 1s are so important for broodmare value, you're never going to get really easy grade 1s.

You have to remember that one of the reasons these races out west have been so easy is because Z is scaring the competition away. If Z wasn't in these races, you would have more shippers from the east coast coming out west to win a grade I. Top mares from the east coast don't want to fly out west to face Z. If Z wasn't in these races, you would have more of these top mares coming out west for a grade I. It's not Z's fault that she's scaring the competition away. That is the point you are missing.

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

The point about broodmare value is that as long as grade 1s are so important for broodmare value, you're never going to get really easy grade 1s.

You have to remember that one of the reasons these races out west have been so easy is because Z is scaring the competition away. If Z wasn't in these races, you would have more shippers from the east coast coming out west to win a grade I. Top mares from the east coast don't want to fly out west to face Z. If Z wasn't in these races, you would have more of these top mares coming out west for a grade I. It's not Z's fault that she's scaring the competition away. That is the point you are missing.

Did they fill up those collectible Zenyatta glasses with free kool-aid?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Scav

Her dirt wins have been her best wins IMO.

I laughed.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

The point about broodmare value is that as long as grade 1s are so important for broodmare value, you're never going to get really easy grade 1s.

You have to remember that one of the reasons these races out west have been so easy is because Z is scaring the competition away. If Z wasn't in these races, you would have more shippers from the east coast coming out west to win a grade I. Top mares from the east coast don't want to fly out west to face Z. If Z wasn't in these races, you would have more of thse top mares coming out west for a grade I. It's not Z's fault that she's scaring the competition away.

You're contradicting yourself. "As long as Grade 1's are important for broodmare value, there aren't easy Grade 1's. The reason these Grade 1's are so easy.."

Your point is, essentially, there are no California synthetic mares who can beat Zenyatta. Truly groundbreaking stuff. The "no east coast shippers want to take on Zenyatta" thing holds no water, because the playing field is not even close to level for dirt horses on the crap Zenyatta runs on. If Zenyatta weren't in these races, you may get two or three east coast dirt horses a year spinning the roulette wheel on synthetic, but the difference would be negligible. It's mainly the surface and its neutralization of dirt horses.

And please, I'm begging you, stop starting sentences with "It's not Zenyatta's fault.." It's completely meaningless. Who's blaming the actual horse? The connections are chickenshit. You have no counterargument.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

You're contradicting yourself. "As long as Grade 1's are important for broodmare value, there aren't easy Grade 1's. The reason these Grade 1's are so easy.."

Your point is, essentially, there are no California synthetic mares who can beat Zenyatta. Truly groundbreaking stuff. The "no east coast shippers want to take on Zenyatta" thing holds no water, because the playing field is not even close to level for dirt horses on the crap Zenyatta runs on. If Zenyatta weren't in these races, you may get two or three east coast dirt horses a year spinning the roulette wheel on synthetic, but the difference would be negligible. It's mainly the surface and its neutralization of dirt horses.

And please, I'm begging you, stop starting sentences with "It's not Zenyatta's fault.." It's completely meaningless. Who's blaming the actual horse? The connections are chickenshit. You have no counterargument.

I agree with you that having synthetic tracks out west definitely prevents some east coast horses from coming out for these grade 1s. Some trainers may not feel that their horse will handle a synthetic track, and rightfully so in many cases.

So I agree that the synthetic track does stop some horses from shipping out west for a grade I. But that is not the only reason. Not wanting to face Z is a big part of it too. If Z isn't in there, you're going to have more guys rolling the dice and shipping out west to take a chance to win a grade I and increase their mare's value dramatically.

When I say "it's not Z's fault", I mean it's not her connections fault that people don't want to face her.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

When I say "it's not Z's fault", I mean it's not her connections fault that people don't want to face her.

Correct, but she should be well past the point in her career where they let other horses come to her. She's proven every single thing she can possibly prove against SoCal mares on synthetic.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

You say, "The owners of the best horses always looked for the best races to show their stuff in, but these guys are different."

That is untrue. Most of the great mares usually run against mares. Some of them run against the boys sometimes, but that's not really expected and that's not really the norm. If you look at the records of most great mares, the majority of them usually ran against mares. It may be a little different in Europe, but not over here.

Doesn't Zenyatta's reputation transcend her gender?

There was a big blow up when she was compared to Lava Man a few months ago.

Doesn't the vast majority here think she is more than capable of shouldering the principle components of his '96-'98 campaigns (ie Big Cap, Hollywood Gold Cup, Pacific Classic) and come out the other end at least as successful as he was?

If you still want to play the gender card, didn't most of the top mare's of the modern era travel to a much greater extent than Zenyatta? Let's ignore Personal Ensign, who's "light" campaigning (in fact she was raced in intense fashion playing "catch up" as a 3yo) was the result of a major injury as opposed to a conscientious trainer.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

Did they fill up those collectible Zenyatta glasses with free kool-aid?

What I'm saying isn't even debatable. I'm not saying anything controversial. You must not be in the horse business. The main goal of anyone that owns a mare is to win a grade I. That's how you increase your mare's value dramatically. Everyone wants their mare to win a grade I. The value of your mare goes up 5x overnight.

Anyone with a good mare is looking to win a grade I. If you're back east and you're looking to get a grade I win, you will strongly consider shipping out west. It's been done a lot over the years. It's even done with colts to increase their value. It's probably not done quite as much now with the synthetics but it's still done.

Anyway, if a trainer is deciding whether or not to send his mare out west to try to win a grade I, you don't think Zenyatta's presence in the race will have a huge impact on the guy's decision. If you don't, then you are the one drinking the cool-aid.